M.P.'s for Ex-Pats? Discussion on the Today Programme.
France is considering new M.P's for its ex-pats and I am wondering what the SFN community thinks of this idea for British ex-pats?
The Today programme held an interview this morning between Brian Cave, a British ex-pat living in France and the Labour peer, Lord Lipsey.
I was appalled to listen to how badly prepared Lord Lipsey was before he came to this discussion.
He stated categorically that Mr. Cave should not have an ex-pat M.P because he did not pay tax in the UK.
Mr Cave was a teacher and has a civil service pension which is automatically taxed in the UK, as is all income from the rental of properties in UK owned by ex-pats.
He also stated that because ex-pats do not pay VAT, we should not have an ex-pat MP.
Our SIPP is governed by the rules imposed by the UK Government and when we order goods on-line from UK, we all pay VAT.
Another reason Lord Lipsey stated was that the UK is trying to reduce the amount of M.P.'s and this proposal would increase their number.
Should we be better represented in the country of our nationality? After all ex-pats have particular concerns and I think that this would be an excellent idea and as Lord Lipsey ably demonstrated, it seems that we are not being taken seriously be our ruling classes.
You can contact Lord Lipsey via "Write to them" on the net.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Paul Head on -
I entirely agree Jane. Even if it were a nominated MP who was able to vote on matters that pertained to those of us who still have to have pecuniary links with the UK. Isn't there a tenant somewhere about being taxed only if you have the right to vote?
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Permalink Reply by Brian Milne on -
Paul, there was once a legal requirement for voters to be tax payers (which many of them efficiently evaded making today's wealthy no different to the lot in the past) but that was before franchise was extended to the 'labouring' classes, etc, eventually women. It is, I believe if a constitutional lawyer was consulted, why the imprisoned and certified insane are not allowed to vote still (at least because when universal franchise was extended that was the reason) although it was assumed that women who did not work had taxes paid by their working husbands or fathers (specifically one or the other but not 'partners', brothers, etc).
Jane, it is an interesting question but one that is constitutionally difficult since one is required to have residence in one's constituency - if only a proxy one such as the party office having a room where the MP sleeps at least one night per year but is recorded as the tenant with permanent access. One also has to have permanent residency in the UK. Changing the present constitution, which is not written but is made up of various and often incompatible statutes, with Scotland perhaps becoming independent in the foreseeable future and also Wales and Northern Ireland getting more self determination, is a hornet's nest.
Sarkozy did at one stage say that his government intended to give full electoral rights to full residents, EU citizens at the very least but perhaps others too, but that seems to have gone 'quiet' again. I think it is an important issue, since I have my registration where I lived for five years and have no vested interest or sentimental attachment since it was for a professional period in my Swiss wife's career. Perhaps if we had a more meaningful choice of where to vote and have some kind of tie to that place it might make more sense. Expatriots of all nations and everywhere they are have a terrible voting record when they are registered and relatively few in proportion bother to register. So is it a case of desperate measures to help a party hang on by its proverbial teeth? I have some suspicions in that direction.
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Permalink Reply by Jane Williamson on -
Brian,
I don't think that the present UK coalition government are thinking along these lines,but somewhere along the line I did hear a murmur about extending the present fifteen year deadline for ex-pats to have the right to vote in UK elections.
We made every effort to vote, including changing our postal vote to a proxy when the post was affected by the Icelandic ash clouds.
It was also very interesting to hear Lord Lipsey claiming that the present french proposal is a form of jerrymandering, which is very interesting comeing from a member of a party who has made more changes in constituency boundaries than any other!
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Permalink Reply by Brian Milne on
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Yes, heard the rumour too although at my great age it may not affect me too much, unless I go into my 80s and break the family records. As for the jerrymandering comment, couldn't agree more.
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Permalink Reply by Keith Lacey on -
I agree also Jane. We fought for more than 2 years to have not only the UK made micro stations accepted in France but also the EN certification of products.
Even though myself and my wife really suffered for it ( my french pension application was mysteriously "lost" for 2 years, 47500 euro facture arrived out of the blue from RSI, both our carte vitales were suddenly withdrawn without notice or reason), we eventually won a small victory in 2009 forcing the acceptance of micro stations.
Its amazing what affect a letter from us to Pres Sarkozy has when we told him we were taking France to the European court over it all. Pension found, 47500 euro credited and 2000 euro repaid to us, carte vitales just arrived in December 2011 after us not having one for 2 years.
Even now the problems are ongoing. We are helping a very large UK company and have a current investigation being carried out by Antonio Tajani, the EU Vice President, because France are still continuing to refuse the standardisation of EU certified products from the UK and other member states (Germany does it too).
My point is this, you are correct, this Lord obviously has no knowledge of ex pats in France, how we actually do pay tax in the UK in different ways and more importantly, there are many of us ex pats that have business's and work very hard trying to promote and sell UK products in France. When things get tough and we need a voice or assistance, David Cameron and Co all run and hide. We know, we have the letters from 10 Downing Street to prove it.
I for one would welcome our own ex pat MP to speak and stand up for us, to the point of running for the position myself. Thats how strong I feel about it.
Perhaps we could force a debate on the matter by creating the online petition at http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/
I am sure we could get enough folk to sign it. Bottom line is do not let the French bureacrats bully you if you know you are in the right.
Just because we are ex pats, doesnt' mean we have to bow our heads and accept French bureacracy "as is" when its acting against Euro Law. You only have to view http://ec.europa.eu/solvit/site/success/index_en.htm to see how many such bureaucratic problems have existed and still exist between member states.
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Permalink Reply by Roy Harwood on -
A sad state indeed Jane, but a very deeply entrenched one. As for Lord Lipsey (in himself another reason for abolishing peerages I should think) he is stricken with the same problems as all MPs regardless of party affiliation - namely having only one thing in his head and that is to stay in office. if you do not vote you do not count, it is that simple. I have repeatedly had the discussion with my French friends as to why, as a resident and a taxpayer, I am not allowed to vote for a representative in the National Assembly or for the president of France. After all it was only a couple of centuries or so ago that a little disturbances in Boston with the slogan of "no taxation without representation" started the American Revolution.
I have yet to hear any logical response other than there are not enough non-French taxpayers to matter. So much for the bureaucrats in Brussels and their much vaunted concept of common justice within the EU - they cannot even manage to enforce democracy!
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Permalink Reply by Brian Milne on
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I agree, Fabiansism - his brand of pseudo-socialism - should be against barons, not actually having the likes of Lipsey. The expat community of France is rather larger than they let on, would probably support UMP more than other parties (I am personally to the left of any party in France, so no vested interest other than participation in democracy) and expatriots given votes in countries other than there own tend to turn out in high numbers in appreciation of the privilege. It is, I suspect, lazy law making and fear of making themselves foolish by being wrong. That is not particularly a French thing, all EU countries are doing it but some are worse than others. I suspect France and UK both top that pile.
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Permalink Reply by Jane Williamson on
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Keith,
I would be delighted if you would start an epetition and even more delighted if you would stand if we eventually got a debate and a positive result.
If we added the ex-pats in Spain, Italy, Germany etc. we could surely achieve the required number of "hits". My daughter in Munich would sign for one!
We are in the process of starting to rent our "Little House" as our SIPP is not performing as we were promised and hoped it would.
Since starting in this direction we are facing the possibility of having to charge 7% TVA from the first euro made, even though we want to use the auto-entrpreneur scheme, which avoids TVA altogether. We will also have to pay to have the gite "graded", at a cost of 170 euros,even though we do not want it. This is so we can can join the AE scheme. And so it goes on. We seem to have bureauctratic missiles coming at us from all directions!
I will follow your link as well.
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Permalink Reply by Keith Lacey on
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Jane,
I will sit down and prepare an application for the petition site. It takes a while to get on the petition list because they reject anything with even the slightest wording problem so it has to be carefully done.
If anyone has any ideas on the wording, throw them in and I will see how we go.
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Permalink Reply by Brian Milne on
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When I concentrate, unlike on here, I professionally write academic standard papers and publications. I would, consequently, suggest a small 'working group' with an exchange of e-mails to 'play with it' until the phrasing and wording, down to the most perfect spelling and punctuation, to keep the lawyers happy is in place before submitting. I am part of a similar exercise with UNHCHR at present and we took nearly a month to get it right before submitting to the UN at the beginning of this month. Worth doing it right, sitting back and being patient - if only to see if it reveals what the exact truth is by quirky chance.
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Permalink Reply by Keith Lacey on
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Brian, I am all for that. There are more learned folk out there than me.
I know how perfect it has to be because I recently became involved with an online petition for the wholesale removal of benefit in the UK for fraudulent applicants of invalidity, job seekers, etc which we all should approve but unfortunately they have encompassed the genuine claimants as well.
The benefit offices are applying the removal now, even though it doesnt come into affect until june 2012. The problem is that the genuine claimants are being told this without access to the necessary governent ordered assessment first. It even applies to current cancer sufferers and those with diseases such as Crohns, which my daughter (who had to have one metre of her bowel removed when she was 17) suffers very badly from and has been told by 3 different government specialists she will never work again not only because of the condition, but because of the 8 different drugs she has to take each day to stay alive..
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Permalink Reply by Jane Williamson on
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That's great Keith.
Would it be better to wait and see is if the french proposal goes ahead and we can then follow suit, or to strike out on our own whilst this debate is fresh? Sometimes the timing is as important in these things as the wording and we don't want to get shot down in flames.
© 2012 Created by James Higginson.
