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Comment by Brian Cave on March 19, 2012 at 8:04

Thanks to Guillaume and Shirley for their additions.  I will write to both privately.  Reading my document,  it would seem that it is worded more in the form of a 'will'.  It was written ten years ago and of course costs have risen since then.  They were written under a notaire who has 'passed on'.  A second notaire has since read them and confirmed that they are OK.  The wording is very simple - I had little command of French 10 years ago - Now it is relatively easy to understand.  The base line remains - it is essential that everyone completes a will in French. 

Comment by Shirley Morgan on March 18, 2012 at 22:39

@Guillaume. As I see it our situation should be relatively straightforward. Our property was bought outright (no mortgage) and is jointly owned. In the event of the death of one of us, I want to ensure that ownership of the total property will transfer to the surviving spouse solely and that neither of our sons can inherit till the 2nd parent dies - then they can equally divide net proceeds of sale between them.

I assume from your reply to Brian, that I can as he says, get a handwritten document notarised. Having worked briefly for a UK solicitor, I presume we can write something similiar to the effect of 

'this is my last will and testament and I bequeath my share of our jointly owned property to my spouse for his/her sole benefit'

or is that too simple for the french system??

Comment by Shirley Morgan on March 18, 2012 at 22:22

@Brian. Thanks, I have sent you an email - its probably gone to your spambox . my name @yahoo is my email address.

Comment by Guillaume Barlet on March 18, 2012 at 21:59

Advice on inheritance is a complicated and therefore, naturally, a confusing matter.

It is always difficult to provide any answer without having a fair assessment of one’s situation and the rules that applies to him/her.

I have read your comment Brian and you may find that you entangled the concepts of handwritten French will and gift between spouses (donation entre époux). The cost of the first one is €10.70 (although a notaire will usually charge €30 to €40 but sometimes over €100!) and the cost of the second one is much higher and depends on many elements. As a matter of fact, a donation entre époux is usually not necessary and the same effects can be met with a French will or even by doing nothing! It is always useful to know first “what happens if I do nothing?” and compare any options to this basis.

It may be useful for you to revisit your notaire or seek advice with someone else to provide you with a detailed explanation of the document you signed and of the effects of a usufruit (which does not give the usufruit holder absolute powers on the property or a share of the property, and the heirs can interfere in certain cases). If the document is indeed a donation entre époux, the effects are determined within the deed and can differ from one person to the other depending on what they have decided.

But I suspect that in fact you have signed a handwritten will, which is not necessarily a bad thing at all (even if it is not always making a difference from a legal perspective, at least it allows to have clear and retrievable instructions to deal with the estate which can make you gain several months of lengthy procedure) but I am not entirely sure its effects have been correctly explained to you.

In any case, prior to going into solution mode, it is always prudent to check which law (e.g. French, English or other) applies. Then only can a set of options be determined. The notaire’s solutions are often overlooking this paramount first step as they always expect French law to apply (this is after all the way they are trained). Unfortunately, this is not always the case.

I am happy to discuss this further if you require further assistance.

I hope this helps.

Comment by Brian Cave on March 17, 2012 at 7:35

To Shirley,

I am not a notaire but here is my advice.

I am assuming that you and your husband are joint owners of your property.

Go to a notaire and get a French will made.  The form is that of a 'don entre époux'

This needs be just one paragraph long and has to be written  freehand in French.  Such a short document written by both you and your husband separately will ensure that if one of you dies the survivor can enjoy the total benefits of all your property without interference from your sons.  You will have total 'usufruit' or 'the rights to the fruits' of the property.  I believe that on the death of one of you,  the survivor would possess 50% of the property outright and the other 50% would be split between the survivor and your two sons. BUT your sons cannot enter onto the property nor interfere with  the survivors enjoyment of the total property .

The cost of making a visit to a notoire to do this was for us some few years ago about 25 euros. 

If you send me your email address I would be happy to send you a copy of my 'don entre époux'  so that you can see how simple it is.   Such an action is absolutely essential.  ( my address  -- lefourquet@gmail.com)

Comment by Shirley Morgan on March 17, 2012 at 1:01

...as we all know in France 'l'homme' is God and women are 2nd class citizens in the eyes of the law! Its all about testosterone and heirs here -  l o l !

Despite my urging, at the time of our house purchase here 4 years ago when we  moved from UK, my husband made no provision either in the 'documentation' or via a notaire to have the 'inheritance' situation covered , vis-a-vis, so that if one of us dies, the surviving spouse inherits all. We have 2 sons living in the UK and my understanding is that currently, if one of us dies here, then both sons between them will share/own 50% of our property and financial assets - which surely is very restrictive on the surviving parent, if relationships are not good? We have neither UK or french Wills and our current relationship with ours sons and families is far from blissful!

This is why I would like to be assured of being protected by UK law - once we are both gone, I have no problem with our remaining assets being divided equally between our sons. Any guidance / advice would be appreciated!

Comment by Shirley Morgan on March 17, 2012 at 0:25

I have only tonight come across this topic. I have copied and pasted to my 'local MP' from where we used to live in UK and will also be forwarding to the regional MEP. I may even see if I can somehow get it sent to Downing Street as well.

I'm fed being treated as a 2/3/4 ? class citizen by successive UK governments, despite having worked and paid all my taxes and contributions in the UK till I retired, when I then moved to France!!

May I urge other expats to do the same!

Comment by Guillaume Barlet on March 14, 2012 at 19:48

You are absolutely right Brian. UK domicile of birth is somewhat a "sticky" status. This simply means that in case of contradiction between French and UK domestic law, one should revert to the bilateral treaty signed in that respect between the two countries.

Incidentally, apart from the implementation of a certificate of succession, most of the questions dealt with in the new European text were already addressed in the treaty so it is not surprising that the UK opted out.

Comment by Brian Cave on March 14, 2012 at 19:30

Thank you Guillaume for this information. It is obvious that one must apply oneself  for  some time to understand it.

What immediately is of interest is the law on domicility through birth in the UK.  As the UK has opted out of this regulation then it might seem that an expatriate could well be subject to that law although otherwise he would come under (say) French law. As this regulation will be law in France then theoretically he could choose but as the UK has opted out we have a lovely legal tangle.  It makes it dodgy what happens to property and assets kept in the UK???

Comment by Guillaume Barlet on March 14, 2012 at 18:16

Well the European Parliament has officially adopted this text: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+TA...

Confirmation that the UK has opted out of it.

 

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