Brexit - really?

Yes Hilary it is Jurassic thinking but it's tied to the visa. You have to fit into a category before you arrive and it cannot be changed. To change it you have to go back to your country of origin and reapply for a different category. In most cases this isn't feasible, especially if, like me, it costs a fortune to go back 'home and live' until you get your new visa. This is one of the reasons I have applied for naturalisation but I have to survive workwise until the decision.

jobs are disappearing in Calais because of the wild west.Dunkirk same so the regional president makes his voice heard.Hollande is busy about the shockwave now not Calais

No lawyer but if you have french clients for your business you shd be registered here in France.

Yanis might be on to something: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/video/2016/apr/15/yanis-varoufakis-eu-owen-jones-video-interview

George, my apologies I took it that only first 2 lines WERE from the Guardian and the rest were your personal comments!

I wrote that the only paper available to buy is Connexion, to clarify that I'm not a red top reader! I catch up with The Times and Guardian as far as I can, but cannot afford to be a permanent subscription account holder to their online versions.

I also wrote I had sourced my information from TV, no I didn't specify BBC or which of their channels specifically, Although they are the ones I've mostly watched. I also watch or listen to a lot of BBC Parliament channel - all on TV, not my tablet unless I want to watch it again.

I also watch France 24, and several other of the foreign news channels that are broadcast in English. I follow what I can on French TV channels also, but am not fluent in French.

I have a great interest in politics, especially at the moment, I do not prescribe to any specific political leanings. OH and I ran a business in UK, with English, German, French, Italian, Swiss and Slovenian products supplied through direct or agencÅ· purchase accounts we had with them, which it was my responsibility to deal with, so I well understand the implications of a lot of the financial aspects of Brexit from that viewpoint. Not to mention on a personal level being a pensioner now, and shareholder in past years.

So given above, you obviously don't think so, but I think I have a rationalised balanced view, because I listen to and think about all sides of any argument. You wouldn't believe how many times I changed my mind about which was the better one or not.

In the end I did vote Remain by post though because I voted using my head, not my heart. Even after posting it on 9th June, I still wavered because we cannot divorce social cohesion from political desire or economic need.

They are the things that still need to be balanced for the benefit of all - we certainlÅ· don't need planetary insanity though!

Today I Asked myself did MP Jo Cox die just for us to be where we are at now politically! What a waste of a genuine human beings life, to leave a widow and 2 young children. We'd all do well to heed what her husband, working colleagues and many other organisations she was involved with, all said in tribute to her!

Yes I like Sahid Javid, thought he spoke a lot of common sense, I also like what the new London Mayor Sadiq Kahn, has to say regarding some of his aims for London since his election. Making his domain a totally separate body though, I don't know I agree with. I think the Capital must remain a significant to all, multinational, multicultural one and not to be perceived as an elitist one.

Perception - as the Referendum result has proved - has done no favours to anyone. I wonder what sense of it Boris has, saying this morning that Project Fear has gone and people's pensions are safe. Does he not know that most, if not all, private pensions are invested via Bonds and Stock Markets, which continue to fall, while Sterling is at a 30 year low today? The Tax and NI Conts should have been kept separate decades ago at commencement of that system. the Prudential offered the post war Government the opportunity to have Contributions invested to provide the pension income for the future! No said the government of the day, they wanted to keep the cash flow it provided. My husband used to work for the prudential and the information was part of their historical records at the time.

I may not be well educated or well read, I am well informed though, by the best means I can be in current circumstances, including the Internet,since it started.

After absorbing information, I am also a radical free thinker in my own right, both before and after the brain haemorrhage. The activities of the mind are separate to those of the neural receptors and transmitters of the brain. Some here may understand and accept that concept, most won't unless they've also had one!

George, my apologies I took it that only first 2 lines WERE from the Guardian and the rest were your personal comments!

I wrote that the only paper available to buy is Connexion, to clarify that I'm not a red top reader! I catch up with The Times and Guardian as far as I can, but cannot afford to be a permanent subscription account holder to their online versions.

I also wrote I had sourced my information from TV, no I didn't specify BBC or which of their channels specifically, Although they are the ones I've mostly watched. I also watch or listen to a lot of BBC Parliament channel - all on TV, not my tablet unless I want to watch it again.

I also watch France 24, and several other of the foreign news channels that are broadcast in English. I follow what I can on French TV channels also, but am not fluent in French.

I have a great interest in politics, especially at the moment, I do not prescribe to any specific political leanings. OH and I ran a business in UK, with English, German, French, Italian, Swiss and Slovenian products supplied through direct or agencÅ· purchase accounts we had with them, which it was my responsibility to deal with, so I well understand the implications of a lot of the financial aspects of Brexit from that viewpoint. Not to mention on a personal level being a pensioner now, and shareholder in past years.

So given above, you obviously don't think so, but I think I have a rationalised balanced view, because I listen to and think about all sides of any argument. You wouldn't believe how many times I changed my mind about which was the better one or not.

In the end I did vote Remain by post though because I voted using my head, not my heart. Even after posting it on 9th June, I still wavered because we cannot divorce social cohesion from political desire or economic need.

They are the things that still need to be balanced for the benefit of all - we certainlÅ· don't need planetary insanity though!

Today I Asked myself did MP Jo Cox die just for us to be where we are at now politically! What a waste of a genuine human beings life, to leave a widow and 2 young children. We'd all do well to heed what her husband, working colleagues and many other organisations she was involved with, all said in tribute to her!

Yes I like Sahid Javid, thought he spoke a lot of common sense, I also like what the new London Mayor Sadiq Kahn, has to say regarding some of his aims for London since his election. Making his domain a totally separate body though, I don't know I agree with. I think the Capital must remain a significant to all, multinational, multicultural one and not to be perceived as an elitist one.

Perception - as the Referendum result has proved - has done no favours to anyone. I wonder what sense of it Boris has, saying this morning that Project Fear has gone and people's pensions are safe. Does he not know that most, if not all, private pensions are invested via Bonds and Stock Markets, which continue to fall, while Sterling is at a 30 year low today? The Tax and NI Conts should have been kept separate decades ago at commencement of that system. the Prudential offered the post war Government the opportunity to have Contributions invested to provide the pension income for the future! No said the government of the day, they wanted to keep the cash flow it provided. My husband used to work for the prudential and the information was part of their historical records at the time.

I may not be well educated or well read, I am well informed though, by the best means I can be in current circumstances, including the Internet,since it started.

After absorbing information, I am also a radical free thinker in my own right, both before and after the brain haemorrhage. The activities of the mind are separate to those of the neural receptors and transmitters of the brain. Some here may understand and accept that concept, most won't unless they've also had one!

The promised Utopia seems to disappearing every time a Brexiteer opens their mouth.

I've always liked this...and of course it includes being a real brave and stout-hearted woman too...and it seems apt, as well......

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, donā€™t deal in lies,
Or being hated, donā€™t give way to hating,
And yet donā€™t look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dreamā€”and not make dreams your master;
If you can thinkā€”and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ā€™em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: ā€œHold on!ā€

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kingsā€”nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty secondsā€™ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything thatā€™s in it,
Andā€”which is moreā€”youā€™ll be a Man, my son.

Lots of Kipling is excellent to read however unfashionable he became post 1914.

Hi Veronique,

Yes, I (of course), encountered him at school (Rikki-Tikki-Tavi, Just So stories) but we didn't cover his background much. I thought after your comment about his lack of popularity after 1914, that I'd look him up .....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudyard_Kipling

and I have to thank you...he's fascinating and was fortunate enough to have been born into an artisic family with connections to the Pre-Raphealites, politicians, poets,....travelled extensively all over the world, met & had great friendships with the likes of Mark Twain, Conan Doyle, Henry James (all writers I love),

and......"In 1907, at the age of 42, he was awarded the Nobel Prize in Literature, making him the first English-language writer to receive the prize, and its youngest recipient to date.[6] He was also sounded out for the British Poet Laureateshipand on several occasions for a knighthood, both of which he declined."

Strangely, I cant find any reference to the decline in his popularity that you refer to....Perhaps you can enlighten me ?

Well, the fact that he was seen as a very pre-war jingoistic figure meant that he was a complete butt of 20's mockery & the thirties & 40s & 50s (take up the white man's burden? No thanks) were even more dismissive of him (he died in 1936 as far as I remember) he had pretty much a nervous breakdown after he fixed it for his son John (I think he was called John) to go off to WWI even though he was rejected initially by the army because he was so short-sighted he couldn't actually see the enemy, John got his face shot off & I'm not sure they even had anything to bury, which was unfortunate, seeing his father had pulled strings to get him in the front line.... anyway an awful lot of people felt he had let them down, silly as it may seem to have a grudge agaisnt a writer. If you read the likes of Auden/Spender/MacNeice/Isherwood/Connolly/Orwell who were all born about the time he got the Nobel prize you can see exactly why he was unpopular, they explain it a lot better than I could. I suppose the problem with Kipling is that he wrote such a lot, some of it marvellous (Kim is still one of my favourite books and Stalky & co. is a wonderful snapshot of an era) but some of it terrible. When I was in Lahore I went specially to the Wonder House mentioned in Kim (the museum) where Lockwood Kipling (Rudyard Kipling's father) was curator - it was still a wonder house. The great gun Zam-Zammah is still there too. Mahbub Ali is one of my favourite literary characters (" 'Trust a Brahmin before a snake, and a snake before an harlot, and an harlot before a Pathan, Mahbub Ali.' "). I don't think I read much Kipling at school, at bit at prep school but more Newbolt & lots & lots of Tennyson & Wordsworth & Shakespeare - If you read Rewards & Fairies (which is where If comes from) I hope you read Puck of Pook's Hill too, I remember it being a magical book. TheJungle Book & the Just So stories my grandmother read to me before I ever went to school & I knew them pretty much off by heart - she lived in Bombay and was a big fan even if like Eliot she thought he wrote great poetry by accident.

Who are your favourite writers in English? I love a lot of different ages of verse but the metaphysical poets, the (first) world war poets & the poets of the thirties best I think. Prose and plays are harder to categorise, I like too much!

Hi Shirley,

The point I was trying to make is that I think that regardless of whether the experts were right or wrong, the main thing is that either they were not believed by many people, or they were believed, but that the goal that the experts were recommending is not one that the people desire.

Surely it is relevant to consider the matter in the context of the last 8 years of austerity. During that time, the underlying principle of the 'trickle down' benefit of capitalism has been continuously eroded in the eyes of many ordinary people. What the man in the street believes he has experienced is incomes staying static, prices rising, unemployment rising, benefits being reduced, housing prices rising, immigration rising in an uncontrolled manner, and at the same time, the so called 'fat cats' at the top of the pile awarding themselves huge pay rises and share options amounting to millions, and then squirrelling it away in tax havens. Whether any of that is actually true is irrelevant. What is important is that it is what a huge number of ordinary people perceive to be the case.

Therefore, when the people at the top say "vote Remain because it will be better for you", then the tendency is for the average voter to think "better for whom, for yourselves you mean", and to promptly vote the other way on the grounds that they believe that by so doing they have at least a chance of being better off in some way, whereas by doing as they are told they will have none. This effect tends to be enhanced when the reasons for doing as they are told are seen as being mainly negative threats to their well being, rather than being positive encouragements about the benefits of staying in the EU, and how it is changing for the better.

In part it is a rebellion against the system, and especially against those that are seen as lining their pockets at the expense of the ordinary person. Those that wish to change the result of the referendum, first need to change the perception regarding those that lead and govern away from that of being a corrupt band of power hungry, selfish, and greedy people who don't give a jot about what happens to the ordinary person. I reckon it's going to take quite a while to achieve that.

Sounds as though you read Literature for your degree ?...

Yes, the unfortunate circumstances surrounding the death of his son was mentioned......but I think his 'attitude' is perhaps misinterpreted in the poem 'Gunga Din' ....(made me smile to discover that when they made a film based on th poem, they cast Sammy Davis)....

Anyway, back on topic......there was an interesting interview with a recent Polish EU minister (Sikkorski ?)..on HARD TALK....a few minutes ago.....and much talk about a Norway Style Deal........here's the link...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/27/brexit-norway-style-deal-with-eu-would-help-uk-avoid-damaging-re/

Consensus of Scotland's political hacks is that a referendum would fail?? Read this: http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/brexit-beginning-end-britain/

and this:

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/yes-brexit-could-very-easily-lead-to-the-break-up-of-britain/

No not literature. ;-)

looked at Alan Massie's Spectator Blog,Veronique, which was interesting though I did not take the same inference as you did. Alan Massie, of course, while a free-lance, publishes much of his stuff in the right wing press. such as the Spectator, Boris's old blatt. Or the London Times. Factually, he was already behind the times, in that the Glasgow Herald has already trumpeted in banner headlines for independence. the Daily Record will always take the Scottish Labour line,but that line is currently in murky waters while the putsch against Corbyn sprinkles its fairy dust. :>)

ALEX Massie rather than ALLAN Massie. (Alex is the son of Allan). I think it is interesting that there has been a move towards the likelihood of iScotland from a staunch unionist position - Nat supporters will remain Nat supporters whatever, so there's no point my putting links to copy from people who haven't changed the attitude they had in 2014 in view of this referendum result. Alex also writes for the Washington Post.

Just found this.....did you see it ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnCvl2T_o5o

My bad - I was thinking about Allan as I typed and had a senior moment as I thought that they might be related. I actually thought that his piece was quite well balanced but just not quite up to date with the flow of events.

...and to be honest I spelt Allan wrong through ignorance :>) , despite owning at least one of his books!