British bombers make first air strikes on Syria after UK parliament vote

General Discussion
21

Yes Brian but slaughtering 30 innocent Brits on a beach or 130 innocent people in Paris and the rest isn't acceptable. These were people who had as much right to live as you and I and our families & friends. Indiscriminate murder, decapitation and rape isn't acceptable either in Paris, Raqqa, Rochdale or anywhere decent folk are trying to get through their lives in a peaceful and democratic way. Innocent people have and always will be killed. I expect my government to protect me from terrorists and the like and I fully support the actions of the allies.

Cameron's comments about jihadist sympathisers was disgusting and he should have apologised at the very least. Also the threats and insults on social media against some of the 66 labour 'rebels' is equally abhorrant. Corbyn wisely gave way and 'conceded' a free-vote but damage has been done and the exposure to such divisions will have caused irreparable damage to Corbyn's leadership.

22

well said Peter! The UK has always been proud to support the underdog (with the exception of some recent incursions), I believe they need any help we can offer at this point. The hate mail being sent to our MPs of all parties today is a terrible campaign against those who seriously believe they were voting on behalf of their constituents wishes.

23

I know that is easier said than done, but it is actually working in Damascus and a few cities where Daesh are very strong, actually one that has had a lot of public exposure is a women's action that has been very strong and worked. Bombing with effectively hostage populations is going to turn sour, it is not expedient to kill innocent people. Cameron has had it in for Assad for a couple of years now, yet at the time of his father the UK and USA were cuddling up with him, as they were with Saddam, so now it is part of a 'shopping list'. Clear IS out of Syria, remove Assad from power, allow in people who are opposition but of untried and tested quality most of whom are conservative Moslems, then wait to see what IS do elsewhere, if they threaten the outside world go after them, if not put up with them whilst they are not doing 'us' any harm. OK, in detail that may not be precise but it is what has been done before and will be done again. Government supporters are saying the last election there was free and open, the electoral observers found no evidence to dispute that, so what are the motives for getting rid of Assad? Something is very much not right, Daesh is the creation of the war in Iraq, it could have been dealt with earlier, the civil war in Syria never needed to have begun except that the opposition got all the support and then IS crept in by the side door. Something is very much not right. Bombing the nation to oblivion will not resolve that, just cost a lot of lives.

24

After I posted that, I came across this article. No confirmation of its verity, but there is some hope in it, at least hope that the empire crazed west can be brought to heel by the only thing they seem to understand - brute force. Anyway, if true it will be a game changer in Syria. The Fort Russ blog brought timely reports from the Ukraine, during the peak of tensions there, that turned out to be very accurate.

http://fortruss.blogspot.fr/2015/12/s-300-in-action-in-damascus-iranian.html

25

But it isn't 'simple' Brian. These communities live in fear every day. Why do you think so many Syrians are doing all they can to leave the country ? Anyone refusing to accept Daesh culture is butchered. These people need to be spared this surely ? They can't defend themselves that's just one reason why the rest of us must step in.

26

Hilary Benn not Tony.

27

That is actually a very salient point which the UN and Hague and Geneva Conventions should be acting on. Mind you, nothing was done about Iraq so what hope is there?

28

Unless the duly elected and official head of state of Syria, Assad, invited the UK, as he did the Russians, British air incursions into Syria are in direct defiance of international law, as are all other military incursions of NATO countries.

29

Not negotiation but simply getting the people who have let them take over their communities to reject what they demand of them. Slam down on their e-media, which is very easy given the surveillance at present, block financial transfers to them and tighten up on them sourcing weaponry, most of US made at that.

30

I can't imagine Tony Benn surpassing last night's speech by Hilary. Ironially Tony, like Corbyn claims to not have been a pacifist with the country having the right to defend itself. Some of the speeches in yestedays fascinating debate were superbly delivered from both sides of the camp and I understand much of the reticence but I can't see an alternative which may help curb Daesh. Jaw jaw is preferable to war war but how can one negotiate with terrorists ?

31

As this was being voted through, I was having dinner with a friend - a 2nd generation Syrian born Palestinian refugee who fled Damascus and sought refuge in France, 18 months ago. I say Palestinian refugee because although his grandparents fled to Syria, where both he and his parents were born, his family are still Palestinian in the eyes of successive Syrian governments. He is Syrian. He is sad. He knows that Syria as he knew is finished as is Iraq and that this is a strategy created during the Clinton years to create a new map of the Middle East.

I am sad. I am disillusioned by governments and I have no shame in saying that I last voted in an election 20 years ago. I think governments are trains running without breaks and all I can do is exist within the bureaucracies of the world I live in.

There are 9 Syrian families squatting 25km from where I live. The mayor of that town is extremely right wing and has the support of the Front National. It is not the greatest environment for around 40 people, ranging in age from 6 months to grandparents, who have travelled across the whole of North Africa and somehow managed to escape the camps and enter Europe via Spain.

The real problem that we are facing, and I say we because what is going on today will affect us all in some way, eventually. The death toll is going to continue to grow, and the people will continue to come. They will be part of our society. We have a choice as individuals, as communities, groups of friends, volunteers to mould what that society is going to look like. You don't have to do what I'm doing, many of the people who are taking action on behalf of these families, do so in many different ways. But each action, no matter how small has a positive knock on effect. I really do believe that … This is the world I want to live in.

I am posting a link to an article written by a friend who I first met 3 months ago, sitting around a table on a warm summer afternoon in southern france. We were 12 locals who had responded to a post on a local Facebook group to meet to talk about a problem that we had all watching on the sidelines for months and even years. I had never met any of the people that I met that afternoon before although most live within 10 miles of my home for the last 12 years.

There is an indiegogo appeal attached to Gary's blog, I hope I am not breaking the terms SFN by posting the link.

http://www.developmentcowboy.com

32

Twelve requests for him to apologise for calling those who opposed bombing 'terrorist sympathisers' were ignored. That is spiting democracy and making his own rules above those one should expect of a parliamentarian let alone prime minister. People have been forced to apologise for less. The media is taking him to the cleaners for that, as for what the Daily Flail said, for once I must agree. It is designer bombing.

Liz, I am not sure you are looking at what is being bombed as a priority. Daesh strongholds, they effectively hold entire populations hostage. So, following your logic, they are just in the way so tough luck. No killing is right, not Paris nor anywhere else but the political façade of doing something is preserved although the conflict will now grow into other places.

As for Tony Benn? He died in March 2014, so how on earth did he take part in the debate and vote?

With respect to the cash cows, rather than bombing them some of the politicians should pursue the doings of Bilal Erdoğan, son of Recep Erdoğan, the current President of Turkey. He is one of three equal shareholders of BMZ Group Denizcilik ve İnşaat Sanayi Anonim Şirketi, a shipping corporation, that has been transporting illegal IS (Syria), Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant crude oil, therefore funding their illegal operations. BMZ Group has wharfs in Beirut and Ceyhan out of which Japan-bound BMZ tankers are transporting IS smuggled crude oil, some of that also goes to Turkey where it is being bought by companies linked to the government. The UK government has been informed about this several times but has made no diplomatic complaint or protest. Much of the oil is in the hands of opposition groups that the present UK government supports over Assad, yet somehow or other it is passing on to IS who those groups are also fighting. So far, which I find very ironic, the only politician to have voiced concerns has been Putin and not that long after a Russian plane that spent 17 seconds in Turkish air space was shot down. The government is not discussing such points, in fact Cameron is being very quiet about Putin who is hardly Mr Nice Guy but for once should be listened to. There is far more behind what is being said than at face value. Innocent people seem to be expendable but what is now very likely to happen is more of what happened in Paris, do they deserve it? I think not, but this bombing will drive the actions of Daesh supporters to take dreadful retribution.

33

I too did not vote for Cameron but he alone did not make this decision. It was a free vote, Hope you communicated your views with your own elected MPs as I did.

34

Have done exactly that - always vote (not for Cameron ugh), also informed my electorial representative of my views and all my friends with any feelings for other humans feel the same. Killing never solved any problems - just they will end up hating us more and helping the terrorists - no more wars please. I am sure you feel your view is the right one but I feel that my view is so we will never agree for sure

35

I am not a political animal and hope that I am not opening doors to hate-mail. But I would suggest that Ms Eccles visit http://Centre de la mémoire d'Oradour personally; to walk in that place - that even today has a profound effect on any visitor and is a mirror image of what the people of Syria and other places in the middle east are experiencing today, thanks not to our allied nations or targeted bombing, as intimated by the above comments, but to the evil presence of Daesh. Targted bombing on oilfields and similar targets harms the cash cow of these terrorists and their ability to continue to torture, behead, murder all nationalities and use women and children vilely.

I have experienced terrorism first hand in more one country - as a mother of 4, now adult children with children of their own, I want a safer place for them, in their respective resident countries. Governmental alliances and mutual UN support is essential to any decision-making processes. Those elected representatives have access to non-public information that assists their informed decision-making process on behalf of their populace. I listened to the arguments in last night's debate - ten long hours of informed, excellent debate (for the most part). Tony Benn, in disagreement with some of his party, made a very honest and forthright statement of his position that, I believe swayed members of all parties in their voting process.

Here we are - for the most part comfortably ensconced in rural France but we, like many of our compatriots learned from our neighbours of cousins, family, friends killed, injured or attending places where they were lucky to escape with their lives from the terrible terrorist attack on Paris, two weeks ago. Rocket launchers were then discovered in Lyon, Grenades in Marseilles, a gun cache too near for comfort.... This conflict has now involved us, here in Franc and yes, I want to be safe too.

The decision made on behalf of those properly elected representatives of the UK was made also on behalf of us expats too (those who voted, which we are all entitled to do). I have confidence in their decision to join our allies as they have stood beside them to to prevent such atrocities as Oradour sur Vannes happening in Syria by Daesh today.

I am by birth Welsh, by nationality British, and proud to be both and very proud to be an integral part of the local French community in which we live. I also served as a diplomatic representative of a third party allied country, lived and worked in many countries internationally for many years in each. I have tried to maintain a neutral position in every country in which I have resided. I do however, believe that the evil that is Daesh has to be stopped. It is not for me to decide how, but I believe that I voted in the UK for someone who could make a decision on my behalf. (an elected minority party representative). I hope that Ms Eccles also used her vote to choose a suitable representative whom she trusted to present her views last night. She has every right to express an informed view, but to be ashamed of her own country, can only be explained providing she has exercised her right to vote and informed her elected representative of her strong feelings against last night's vote. I apologise for any offense I have might have inadvertently caused.

36

Well said and I totally agree

37

I rather liked the comment made by a Mail on Line correspondent last week when he described the (then) prospect of the UK Parliament giving approval to action as nothing more than 'designer bombing'.

I really don't like poshboy Cameron and his cronies. His language in the House yesterday was appalling and so un-statesman-like. He clearly doesn't like Assad but why keep calling him 'the butcher' Assad? So pitiful. He's been spoiling for a fight with Assad for quite a few years now and his 'dodgy' dossier counting on the support of 70,000 insurgent is right up there with Bliar's on Saddam's weapons of mass destruction.

Even worse is Cameron name calling of people exercising their democratic right to oppose action as 'terrorist sympathisers'. That he refused point blank to withdraw this vitriolic attack on people who have every right to express a view speaks volumes about his raison d’être.

Personally, I wouldn't buy a used a car from him....

38

They should listen to Nicolas Hénin the French journalist who was held hostage for 10 months by Daesh. He is afraid that while we are trying to destroy Islamic State by bombing Raqqa, there are also 500,000 civilians still living and trapped in the city. He was speaking about the French airstrikes, of course, and how the bombardment will be used as a huge symbol of righteous anger. Only 48 hours after the Paris massacre French fighter planes carried out their biggest munitions raid up until then in Syria. They dropped over 20 bombs on the IS stronghold Raqqa. Of course he acknowledged that revenge was inevitable, but fears that the reaction will make a bad situation worse. Those not yet converted by Daesh will suffer, be propagandised on the evils of the non-Islamic world, spread word of how everybody hates Moslems and begin to gain sympathy. As far as he is concerned, the propaganda war should be used more and the people won over so that people power alone will undermine IS and defeat them by first isolating then rejecting them.

Violence breeds violence and contempt, that is what the UK is now taking part in. To be so short sighted as to give the IS fighters in Syria, Iraq and elsewhere the moral imperative to claim how badly Moslems are treated by the unbelievers, irrespective of how many other Moslems are on the offensive against them but who they have declared apostate anyway, is to play into their hands. Every death is considered martyrdom and given that their indoctrination makes dying the way to paradise and something better than they have had in this world, which is too often the myth based on truth, they cannot actually lose.

I know that I am now past it, but it is people like myself who are among the professionals who will go in to pick up the pieces, sometimes literally that, which is a heart breaking job itself and an almost thankless task where there is little trust in strangers because all they do is kill or maim you. My few experiences of conflict zones, including twice absolutely front line, frighten me. No scared as in afraid of being shot or bombed but for the state of the people left to get back on their feet when it is all over. The bombing is an easy decision to make for politicians, the aftermath is basically no longer their business, I would like to round them all up and send them there right now so that they can see what their decisions are doing on the ground and if they do take strongholds back from Daesh they can also see the aftermath. Then, just perhaps, they will think next time and not simply bomb the hell out of a city filled with thousands of innocent civilians for the sakes of fighting a few hundred misguided fanatics.

39

This isn't a new conflict Diana, just an extension of the war in Iraq. It doesn't make it right maybe but how do we hope to prevent atrocities like the killing of UK tourists on the beach recently ? Should we simply sit back and let the terrorists murder us ?

France retaliated to the Charlie Hebdo killings and the friday 13th attacks in an attempt to prevent further attacks on us, the residents of this country. I don't like the killing any more than you do but what was Hollande supposed to do ?

At present there are three avenues being explored by the 'allies', military, negotiation and economic. Surely these are the avenues to follow to try to reduce the power of this evil group ?

Hilary Benn, the shadow Foreign Minister delivered one of the great speeches since WW2 to put his points across. He summed up the views of many including myself when he told the Parliament we can't just sit back and let these people indiscriminately murder, behead and rape us...can we ?

40

No more, no war