Could you forgive a killer?

Peter, at least he wasn't as Gung-ho as Charlton Heston when he was alive, and up to a point he was right - with the exception I mentioned at the beginning of my previous post. No other modern weapon has no other function.

On other comments, notably the ones about cars, I am forciby reminded of the old 'saw' that was used a lot with General Motors and that was 'What's the most important nut on an automobile? Reply; 'The Nut behind the steering wheel!'

Jane, where did Peter mention Brian?

Isn't that Sepp Blatter with the pipe ?

Brian, Peter,

funny you should say that - remember when I said I went to Russia to work? That's me at the end - and at the end of a few bevvies!

:-(

:-D

Oops, sorry about that. Agreed, Norman would make a good carthorse !

...anyway, 'bevvy' has 2 'v's

Norman, I am a Quaker and we do not follow dogma but rather search for our own truth within a Christian setting.
I left the C of E because I could not stand up and recite the Nicene Creed.
I found the compromise made over the ordination of women unacceptable.

Tut, tut, the idiom is 'toe the line' as in to be at the start of a race as equal contestants. Mind you, the picture of Norm pulling a barge along a canal path with people enjoying a bevy aboard...

A couple of days ago Arnold Swartzenegger was being interviewed on France 2. His latest Terminator film is out and he's doing the rounds with publicity shots etc. The presenter asked him, through an interpreter (paraphrasing) " How do you reconcile the violence, shooting etc with your political position and your responsability to the people , bearing in mind what happened in Charleston"

Arnie replied "Well, guns don't kill people, it's the people using them"

There's no hope is there?

Quite right too Norman. Now write out fifty times,

"I promise to tow the party line"

Elizabeth,

guess what, neither have I been to South America, nor Japan nor Korea or mainland China. Nor have I been to New Zealand, Samoa, or Kurdistan or Mongolia. I claim zero personal visiting knowledge Iran or Iraq although I did work on the opposite banks, ditto re Siberia, nor Norway, Sweden or Denmark. Of the 160 or so countries listed in the UN I confess to only having lived in 12 (longer than a year), visited for shorter working periods a further 5, and have done projects for(at the last count) some 20 others - actually including the USA and South American countries. I have completely ignored the multiplicity of holiday visits.

I really wonder how I managed to fill in my 75 years almost totally as an expat on that basis. My presuemed horrific crime of never having visited the USA is that the opportunity to work there never arose - as simple as that.

From the answer you have provided I must assume that you have done more and visited more than me, so good on you.

Er where did I ask for your resume? Where did I ask you to placate me? Or compete with me? However if you choose to 'dish it out' then you must be prepared to take some back, it goes with the territory.

Yes, that too, Gilette had a whole new market in those days.

Jane,

you really should read things properly before launching an attack. I have repeatedly stressed that the view and opinions I have porposed are 'mine'. You seem to feel that because I have these I automatically dispose of others, I don't see how you arrive at this conclusion. The 'worst' I have said is why should I believe any other person's values are better than mine? This remains a discussion group so holding an opinion and/or values seems to me to be a valid position to hold.

My comment about being destroyed was in reponse to yours about 'being destroyed by hatred' not aimed at me specifically but generally, so at least partially towards me. My response was also partially ironic in that I stated that having lived 75 years I have not noted being destroyed - OR maybe I just haven't noticed.

I hope that clarifies things?

I have to say you have a penchant for excessively short answers, which do not do your points justice. I refer as an example the answer to Donna that 'most people have lived more than you will ever know. I am a survivor, full stop'!

Most of us I am sure are wondering what you mean. Let's face it we have all 'lived' one way or another,and our very presence on these posts suggest that we too have survived at least this long.

Jane, I am intrigued by your answer but confess I don't understand it.

How is a 'thinking believer' defined as opposed to (presumably) non-thinking one?

I am not being in the slightest bit sarcastic here, literally seeking information, as on the surface at least it seems derogatory to the latter?

We are drifting off-topic a bit but as we have and as I was involved in selling guns for five years in Australia, and as I mentioned earlier was with the Agents for Winchester Arms & Ammunition, plus others may I add a couple of points.

Firstly, just about anything can be a weapon from a cricket bat to a kitchen knife, but only a gun is designed with one purpose only, which is to release a small projectile at high speed towards a target. Much is made of the skill necessary to do that in such sports as Clay Pigeon shooting, Skeet and above all Olympic Trap, and that is totally valid. These are all versions of a sport that uses shotguns with mulitple projectiles over variable spans and relatively short range.

We then move to rifles which are a completely different animal as (theoretically) they were designed with the single projectile being delivered. In case anybody doesn't know 'rifle' takes the name from the internal twist scoring of the barrel which causes the bullet to spin and is more accurate. Again these are mostly seen in Target shooting, and again require a high degree of skill to use successfully.

Brian asks 'when did we lose the plot'? Well probably with Gatling and Hiram maxim who designed the weapons that delivered single projectiles in almost unlimited sequence with a single hold on the trigger. As such they required little or no skill to use, and rightfully became known as 'Automatic' weapons. The best-known and most widely used weapon in this field being the Kalashnikov AK47.

In the first two instances fair claim can be made for them as 'sporting' or even 'working' weapons (farmers etc). This cannot be said for automatic weapons, and there is no known or recognised sport that uses them.

These weapons have magazines that can deliver multiple bullets consecutively at high speed allowing for "spray'. There are semi-automatics that have smaller magazines holding generally about 9 bullets. They are still automatic though.

Most countries now ban the use of automatic weapons sales at retail and ditto with semi-automatics. All other weapons are required to be locked and stored when not in use, and usually with firing mechanisms dismantled.

OK that's true with one MAJOR exception which is the United States of America, where a probable misreading of the Constitution has the "'right to bear arms' of the citizenry. This was originally to cover the possibility of a dictatorship in a still primitive environment, but has been bastardised ever since.

America now has a folkloric heritage around the use of guns - from handguns through to military hardware. It is a strange corollary to me that in a country where religion plays such an (apparently) important place in daily life, the deadliest hardware is relatively easy to obtain and the average gunshop is like an arsenal, at least from what I have seen. Almost none of the weaponry on sale appears to be 'sporting'.

Coupled with religion is the rite of passage for young childen to be taken 'hunting' by their fathers. Putting it simply they are taught to kill living creatures from a very early age - and praised for doing it. It is no great step from killing creatures who can't fight back, to killing other people who also usually also can't fight back - note the proliferation of schools attacked.

The NRA (misnamed National Rifle Association) is dedicated to preserving this way of life and has seemingly vast numbers of members and supporters in the community. It is a vicious circle where more guns are in the hands of more people with the inevitable upsurge in gun crime just on percentages. People seem more threatened and so buy more guns for 'defence' and so it goes on. How this cycle can be broken is unknown, and I certainly don't have an answer, but banning the sale of automatic weapons would be a good start.

Finally on a totally emotive note. Put a gun in someone's hands and there is a sensation of power being transferred. This does NOT turn every gun-owner into a homicidal maniac, but again the more guns that are out there, the greater the possibilities become, especially with the sale of automatic weapons.

Ultimately as I said at the outset, and has been confirmed by the use of a car as a weapon, (NB the increase in this as used by Palestinians in Israel recently) anything can be used as a weapon, it remains once again down to the individual and his sense or lack of sense of responsibility.

Forgiving those who do not exercise this responsibility doesn't do a dam' thing tp resolve the problem.

Donna, it was short for 'Brontosaurus', but only his friends could call hm that - and then with a smile on their faces! I suppose not surprisingly I was known as 'Kid' as in kid brother. Even now my brother still calls me Kid, and signs himself 'Big Bruvver' Daft isn't it? I'm 75 and he's 78.

We are now totally off-topic and will surely be chastised for that!

They are happy because that is what their cult instructs them to be like.

Brian , as you well know i do not find my faith a burden, but that may be because I am a thinking believer.

Donna, most people have lived more than you will ever know. I am a survivor, full stop!

Brian said nothing of the sort. Why do you make it so personal?