P.S. It is a cathartic experience, and it makes the world a less scary place if you can reduce a monster to a figure of derision or even a comical one. Even psychologists recognize the benefits of having revenge fantasies. Most people don't act on these fantasies, but there are no thought police that can stop people from having them.
That would make them martyrs. I wouldn't give them or their people the satisfaction. As prisoners they could be put to far better use, clearing land mines, for example. That's a win-win situation, in my humble reactionary opinion, of course.
What's the point of God then?
Omg, you type out your old, old platitudes endlessly.
I have been reading along looking for an original thought.
Having never been to USA, nor wanting to(aye there’s the rub) you give your game away.
Why have you never wanted to go and investigate the subject of your faulty opinions. You are very out of date, sir.
So do we forgive IS murderers who behead humanitarian workers for example ? I don't feel 'consumed with hatred' because I despise such people. Shouldn't we be shocked and horrified by such things and react accordingly ? Shoudn't these murderous examples of the Human Race face the ultimate penalty ?
I would say most of us are rhetorically pronouncing on what we would do. The discussion is a rhetorical question. It invites a lot of reactions. Some may feign bravado, some feign religious or psychological insight. That's what makes this discussion so interesting to read. The truth is, you may be surprised, but will never know, how many or few people on this forum have experienced first-hand violence. Not everyone reading this forum is giving their personal testimony. Don't assume that you have a better understanding of anything unless you've walked in that person's shoes. If one of your family was deliberately shot, if you've had a gun to your head and managed to talk your way out of being killed, for example, you are entitled to have an opinion that runs contrary to the traditional notion of having to forgive.
That is arrogance on your part to say that. Why is something as close to being true as most people will admit pretentious? Because you say so? I do not claim to be the only one with true courage, in fact I do not claim courage anywhere, nor am I the only person with understanding. I have my own understanding as you have yours and in which we differ. I used the words 'think' and 'suspect' after the word 'I', thus opinion, so do not put words in anybody's mouth unless you can prove what you are saying they are saying. I found it insulting.
As for physical violence, my business what has happened to me, but I have been on the receiving end often enough thank you. It goes with what I chose to do and that goes for many of the other people who are so often considered wishy-washy do good liberals. Try looking at the details about aid and humanitarian workers and just recently how many of the IS has killed. There is a vast difference between types of courage too.
Simple enough question I would have thought Norman ! I mean, what is God's rôle exactly ? Believers (i'm an ex) seem to have it all ways. When something good happens then it's God helping us or whatever and when things are negative it nowt to do with God ! I don't get it though i'm ready to become a believer again if the marketing is ok.
My late wife was a BIG opera personally I can't stand listening to some fat bird sqwaking in italian ! Can't we shift the analogue over a bit towards Mahler or Prokofiev ?
'Forgiveness' is a term that may be open to interpretation. I've been reading about religious forgiveness, psychological forgiveness, political forgiveness... People can use it to mean different things. Some people think they are required to give forgiveness, due to societal pressure, religious teachings, and the psychobabble articles found in magazines. I think the idea is to move on (eventually) after experiencing a tragedy. If one moves on and puts some distance between oneself and the wrongdoer, or the event, time takes care of a lot. The 'moving on' becomes a way of triumphing over evil, too, and that gives satisfaction, comfort and meaning. That's all some people need. It is not true that everyone who doesn't forgive will be consumed and destroyed by hatred. I know plenty of people living full productive lives, not because they felt pressure to forgive, but because they feel they have triumphed over evil by still being alive and carrying on.
Brian,
that truly is one of the most pretentious things you have ever posted.
An outright claim to being the only person with TRUE courage? The ONLY person with understanding?
Of course the 'meek shall inherit the earth' and all that, after being kicked in the teeth and just accepting it all the time eh? Not my idea of courage, but I think Chamberlain had a pretty fair chunk of what you think of as courage.
But do not judge others against your values. If they can forgive then it does not make them wrong, which some of the things you have written imply although I suspect that you never intended that. I know from reading and debating with you long enough that you are a strong, resolute man of considerable experience in the world. Yet, you appear to carry prejudices that you probably do not see yourself. To one extent or another we all do, I cannot deny my own either. However, whether we believe in any version of a god or not, it is really not our gift to judge others unless there is due cause. Following on an ancient tradition of priest and elders, we have judges in the modern world. In most western societies the majority are good, honest people (yes, there are exceptions such as examples in the USA pointed out in the last few days) who use their powers to judge or to use the verdict of juries for which they have long years of learning and experience. It is in them we have to invest our trust and keep our prejudices for ourselves.
As for what you are responding to Jane to say is that you have never been in a comparable situation, therefore have not been destroyed by your perception of evil. Therefore, neither you nor I are adequately placed to judge in this instance but what we express are personal values. Those should not imply what others should do or think.
Peter, how DARE you go about 'Questioning an opinion'! People might strat thinking you had half a brain, and that should not be allowed!
Hey would you like to join my operatic course? Plenty of spaces for people like you.
No disagree.I am not ignoring the fact that this animal shot and killed innocent people FACT…as for forgiving…like you I have an opinion.they destroy animals when they attack and sometimes sadly kill…This animal should be destroyed too…
Absolutely Jane. Unless people have the kind of experience that makes them go either way then I think it is easy to rhetorically pronounce what they would do or think should be done. It requires understanding. In truth I do not wish that on anyone. Forgiveness takes a lot of courage. I suspect less people have that courage than they have feigned bravado.
Brian, not sure if that makes me admire you more or a lot less.
Jane, just what DO you expect from your God then? I am genuinely puzzled
Jane,
I have reached 75 years old, so I suppose it is only a bit previous o say it, but I haven't noticed being destroyed by an inability to forgive evil as I see it.
What people on this discussion seem to be ignoring is the fact that if you do not forgive, difficult though that may be, one becomes consumed by hatred, which will eventually destroy you as well.
Forgiveness is a huge part of the healing process after such a personal loss and tragedy.
Yes.
As a lifetime atheist, I find it unbelievable that people still believe in God! Where was he when this happened? Was it his day off?