Erm - not going to answer that Simon. Think we are singing from a different sheet. :)
Forgiving the cold blooded murder of your nearest and dearest - how Catharine? Move on to where?
Absolutely yes. Forgiving helps you to move on.
How convenient for him - a momentary lapse during which he doesn't know right from wrong. That's been used before in defense cases. It's getting old already.
Personally, I feel just fine carrying my disgust around and not forgiving. So far, life isn't difficult and the load's not too heavy. I'll report back...
Gee, if he said sorry, I know that would make me feel a whole lot better, ready to reach out to him and his poor parents and give them a great big hug for the huge favour they did all of us, uniting us in our grief and collective responsibility ;-(
Nope - he's just a nutter.
Now there's a start ;-)
Forgiveness is one of the hardest things to do. But Imagine the state of mind of someone who kills. They must be so tragically desperate. Its not the act of a content well balanced person. So its good to try and generate compassion for the perpetrator as well as the victims and their family. If one does not forgive then one carries hatred around. This can only make life more difficult. So For everyones sake we must try to forgive.
The poor little lamb. My heart melts for him. He knew exactly what he was doing and he planned it. Creatures like him operate more like terrorists. I've been reading about these types of mass killers. They don't "snap" and lose sense of reality. They're riding on anger, hate, frustration, a sense of failure, grandiosity and extreme narcissism. Saying that he's mentally ill gets him off the hook. This is not some PTSD-suffering vet back from war. He does not come from that environment. P.S. Most mentally ill people are not violent, and they end up being victims of crime, not the perpetrators. He has one or more disorders, like Anders Brievik, Marc Lepine, but I am not going to make him the poster child for mental illness. Bad is bad. He's got a whole lot of things wrong with him, and the biggest one was that he was born. Yes, we live in a sick society, the US has a sickening lack of gun control, there are lots of racists and racism, but not everyone acts out their pathetic little fantasies.
I wish there was a like button on here.....
That's the way Pamela - blame everybody but the person who committed the crime?
Not inherently dangerous? Give me strength - he murdered 9 innocent people! As for US gun laws - they'll change when Hell freezes over - come on.....
Maybe he'll say sorry, see the light and all will be well with the world again.....
Brian,
I still come back to the Hitler analogy and there are plenty of others. On what basis is that 'forgiveable'? Also where would you put someone like him - a Criminal asylum? I do believe in the death penalty under some circumstances the same way I believe in putting down a mad dog and yes it is a quick way, and more humanitarian than a long prison sentence with no remission and I simply cannot see the rationale for the latter on any grounds, humanitarian or economic, or even the usual stated one of 'creating a martyr'.
We ARE creatures of emotion, it is part of who and what we are. If we can't say this is wrong, and apply the appropriate sanctions, then what is the alternative - change into automatons? I don't think genuine evil is hard to see or understand despite what you say. I don't believe it requires too much thinking about. Of course there are degrees as I have already stated.
Is War always wrong? I don't think so, again sorry I come back to the Hitler equation. The First World War WAS wrong as there was no need for it, that cannot be said about WW2 - as was clear and evident from the start and proven to be even worse by the end.
Do we make provisions for other 'cultures'? This is my moral compass argument. At what point do we stand and say 'this is wrong, this is evil'? Or do we just shrug and say it has nothing to do with us? If we subscribe to a culture there can be a reason for evil, but not a justification.
Cruelty exists, we cannot deny it even often in ourselves. The desire for revenge is also part of our emotional makeup and to deny it would be ludicrous. Society sets rules for us to live by, what is acceptable to the most people. Most of these rules are backed up by some sort of punishment and vary according to the crime - or at least that used to be the case until we all became politically correct (well some of us).
I don't see 'forgiveness' forming part of these rules. The bigger the crime the bigger the punishment - unless seemingly you go the Huming Rights people. That was a good idea gone wrong if there ever was one in my view.
Re the Two Wrongs not making a Right statement. Killing Hitler and Himmler would have therefore been two wrongs? Not in my book. Waiting until we are sure can be valid, but as I have stated most evil is obvious, but nothing about humans can ever be declared in 'absolutes'.
I feel for your distress and taking to the booze and crying about situations, and I know it was sincere, but just how did that help stopping the cruelty (aka evil), Brian? With all due respect I don't think it did a thing. Yes, I suppose that could come across as cruel, but hopefully not evil - there is a difference in this regard, as it is not my intention to hurt.
Have you not read how impassive he was, meekly letting the police take him, standing emotionless and still in court and made some assumptions about something not being right? A desperate killer would have probably had a gun battle with the police, or resisted a bit, got away rather than going home, perhaps said at least something when formally charged in court, but nothing? That speaks very clear to me that this is not somebody inherently dangerous or somebody completely here with us. He probably knows right from wrong, but not at the time he shot those people. Yes he is potentially dangerous and will never be free again but thank the USA's constitutional right of citizens to carry arms and the gun lobby's immense political power, he was given licence to do this by the country and state he lives in. More important is that after the recent killings, including indiscriminate ones by police several times over, the government begins to do something about gun controls and codes of practice for those with statutory use of the weapons. Look at the numbers of gun deaths in the USA each year and hear the sound of your jaw hitting the ground when you see how many people are shot accidentally by cops alone, then we build up from there.
Pamela - are you saying he didn't know what he was doing? He doesn't know right from wrong?
Kent - so you would or you wouldn't? You don't wish to be like that or, you're not like that? I guess no one really knows until they are in that position. I know one thing though - no one is ripping my heart out and getting away with it...ever.....
“Turning the other cheek” and “two wrongs do not make a right” are not the same thing, Norman. I simply don’t believe that paying back evil with more evil leads to anything but evil. As a society: a community, we have the right to keep these characters who would do us harm away from the rest of us but do we really have the right to do evil to them for our revenge? What I suggested was more the “oubliette” notion, but not a dank dungeon full of rats. Removing them from any further human contact is one hell of a trial in itself; think about it? And we never even have to think about them being released to wreak more havoc.
In reality, I’m probably more like you and Simon in that, given the context of this thread, and if they killed, raped or tortured someone I cared for, I’d probably want to remove bits of them slowly and without anaesthetic rather than “forgive” them - but I do not wish to be like that. If I have a choice as a human being, I’d like to learn to evolve beyond my basic animal instincts. Isn’t that one of the main things that we’re here for: to evolve spiritually (and I do not mean through religion), to become the best that we can be, to raise our consciousness, to ascend rather than just die?
Norman, I am not sure what you mean by humanists? A humanist is a person who has venomous interest in or concern for human welfare, values, and dignity but does not do so on the basis of good or evil since the basic tenet is that all humans and born good but may become evil. I am, on the other hand, a human rights or humanitarian specialist. I have had dogs all of my life and agree with you about Yulin ( not T). However, there are better ways of dealing with such things as what you say you would do. Then actually show me the person who really does have the guts to go out and kill as some people here are saying.
War is the ultimate killing licence. It allows the most peaceful people to become killers and the most aggressive to become paralysed in fear for their lives. Where do you stand on that? War is not necessary as any more than a mass ritual slaughter of people being told to kill or maim each other on behalf of leaders who seldom have much to do with fighting directly. I have been in a few conflict zones, once on front line only in Lebanon with UNICEF and we had to deal with people on both sides in order to assist the UNHCR and Red Crescent/Cross help displaced people fleeing the fighting. With ordnance from small arms up to missiles flying around it is easy to see how either way is possible. It also teaches those who go in those places that a bit (lot) of madness helps. However, even some of the 'bad guys' are not as bad as they are made out when you come face to face with them. That is very hard to work out, even years on I am ambivalent about who really was the baddy and who the goody, albeit both sides were killing and destroying everything about them.
Killing is seldom done in a stable state of mind. Bear in mind that the vast majority of murders are done by members of families on other members/people in intimate relationships. The psychiatrists and psychologists who seem them nowadays will say exactly what they are not which is usually a potential killer. When a serial killer or mass killer such as Roof occurs there is a 90%+ chance that the person is ill.
The moral compass notion is a difficult one. I find the likes of Jimmy Saville far worse than killers. The reason there is because in nine cases out of ten other people know and collude and damage is done for years on end to people who have it with them for the rest of their lives. As we have seen, they are often simply not believed until more people speak out, statements are corroborated and those who knew break silence. Forty or so years of living with something that nobody believes is prolonged, death is quick. In relative terms those who die are lucky. In reality I condone neither. I am simply examining your compass.
Morality, right and wrong are loaded guns that people use to shoot themselves in both feet consistently. To spout the violent words of retribution and to go out to commit a murder to avenge another is 'eye for eye' pre-Christian morality that was superseded by the 'turn the other cheek' teaching of Christ. Even for those of us who practice no beliefs it is a great idea but how can people do it? I think what is said and done are the answer. Many violent words are spoken but very few people act on them. It is not that they turn the other cheek but that they shout then walk away satisfied they have contributing to making wrong right. That is the measure of the vast majority of human beings for which I am personally grateful. When it comes to being cold and clinical, even appearing indifferent, that is for me second nature. When I do that, otherwise I could not have worked, I have often gone back to where I was staying and cried myself to sleep unless there was strong booze and a day off to follow for my hurting head. So, we 'humanitarians' are not what we seem, we are human beings with feelings, prejudices and have no more love for killing human or beast than anybody else, we simply have to look at it and wait until we know enough to make sense of what we know, even if there is no real sense, but never do or say the irrational and what we can and will never do in real or mock anger.
Yes I could .. because he must be metally ill.. what i could not forgive are the people (parents , care takers , doctors, government, others) who new about his problems and allowed him to be free with a gun ...