Foss question

A gurgling pipe meaning a full fosse is a fairly common expat myth. Due to the design of my plumbing system a gurgling noise has always come from the kitchen sink when any water is evacuated from the basin, bath or shower in the bathroom. It’s probable cause is the oversized pipework under the kitchen floor which causes the waste water to accelerate.
I don’t think that the way unconforming fosses are updated at the point of sale is a case of law, it’s to do with practicality. France wants all its residential property to have good, functioning drainage systems. The universal inspection system failed, the size of the project and the lack of clout to insist that failing systems must be updated had too many problems so another way forward was found. Checking fosses and regulating updates at the point of sale makes sense. If the sale is going to take place someone, either the buyer or the seller, has to take responsibility for the problem. It can no longer remain a grey area. In the OP’s case it’s very straightforward. The law demands that the fosse must be updated as the house is being sold and the current fosse does not conform. The ‘value’ of the house including the new fosse has to be taken into account and if that price is too much for the buyer they look elsewhere and the house stays on the market, perhaps for ever. If the seller wants to sell they will adjust the price down to the buyer’s level and if the buyer really wants to buy that property they will increase their budget upwards. That’s simple economics.

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Hi everyone… on the question of Landlords and non-conforming fosses…

Spoke with a very helpful lady at the SPANC offices… who gave me an outline of things … seems that Landlords and homeowners are dealt with on the same level…

The speed with which a non-conforming fosse must be rectified, depends on the severity of non-conformity… some examples she quoted to me…

If there is a danger to health…rectification must be done swiftly… and their are financial aids available to the proprietor… (that seems reasonable to me)

If it is no danger to health, generally it can wait … but for how long…every case is dealt with on its own merits… and financial aid might be available to get it done sooner rather than wait for a point of sale…

Landlords (be they Local Council or private individuals) must ensure that the fosse in a rented property does not malfunction and never becomes a danger to the tenant. (Note a fosse can be non-conforming but still function satisfactorily as far as the tenant is concerned. Should a known non-conforming fosse start to malfunction (not simply needing to be emptied etc) and/or become a health hazard… then the Landlord must get the fosse dealt with… and, in extreme cases,…relocate the tenant until the work is done… :astonished:

At point of sale…for any property with non-conforming fosse… a guide figure for fosse work, may be used as a bargaining tool (work may cost more, may cost less). The new owners undertake to carry out remedial work within a specified timescale… agreed at point of sale/purchase. … and yes, the new owners will be fined if they renege on this.

However… this kind lady then went on to say that… no matter what…any new owners should feel free to discuss their situation with SPANC…no problem, rather have a chat, than let a situation get out of hand…

Phew…this a rough translation of a rather long phone call… for your general guidance only…

Now I need a rather large glass of wine… mmmm :slight_smile:

That’s fantastic thank you! Good news is today the owner agreed to pay half so all ended well and we can now get excited!
Thanks for all your advice
Lydia

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Glad things seem to be working out for you…:slight_smile:

At the risk of being a little late with my response I thought I should add to this discussion three important points that don’t seem to have been mentioned already: I should perhaps preface these remarks by saying that as a Chartered Building Surveyor who has been living and working in France for the past 16 years I have found that most domestic drainage disposal installations other than those connected to a public sewer are pretty dire - and almost none would come anywhere close to complying with current UK building regulations !
But to be brief -

  1. If a SPANC inspection is carried out and the property is NOT sold the present owner has (under present legislation) 4 years in which to put the installation right him/herself at his/her own cost. This, surely, can be a good bargaining point.
  2. If you need to construct a new drainage disposal installation you are not obliged to install a “fosse septique”. You can if you wish, and if appropriate, install a “mini station d’épuration” - which would almost certainly be more efficient than a septic tank, and possibly less expensive, maybe a lot less expensive depending on physical constraints.
  3. Before doing anything else it might be worth thinking about getting independent professional advice. The SPANC “inspectors” work within a limited framework and most, in my experience, seem to be short on experience and knowledge. I have come across many instances where the “inspector” has relied solely on information provided by the property owner and has not seen the septic tank or other parts of the installation with their own eyes . Be warned !
    As a footnote, and if it is of any consolation, I still come across houses in France where the drains run directly into a nearby river, with no purification whatsoever …
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I pot a Microstation in a couple if years ago, very pleased with it.

http://www.survivefrance.com/t/installing-a-domestic-wastewater-treatment-system/487

What have current UK building regulations got to do with anything? I can’t tell you how glad I am that so much of my home is a world away from that set of rules!
My conforming fosse is excellent. It is an environmentally sound waste management system that does the job it is designed to do perfectly.
I also find it strange that you suggest that SPANC inspectors might be short on experience and knowledge. They are professionals carrying out the job that they are trained and qualified to do. I’m sure there are some inexperienced Chartered Building Surveyors around as well but presumably they must have had the basic skills necessary to be in that position too.

We had an inspection a few months ago. Our property has a main house and a separate cottage across the way that we used whilst “building” the main house and the cottage had a new fosse installed in 2006 with the overflow going into a small sand filter then off to a sloping field. The main house has a fosse with a huge epondage type filter that was installed in 2009. At the end of last month we were called to a meeting at the Mairie as the main house conformed to the new rules but the unoccupied cottage did not, this was highlighted in the SPANC report (there were 19 other people at the meeting). The upshot is that if we get the work done before the end of next year we can get a 60% grant and a 10 year interest free eco loan for the balance and as we are looking to sell in the near future it makes good sense for us to have the work done. If we din’t sell then we have 4 years to bring it up to standard but after next year no grant and no loan.

It was a bit galling to find out that something that was installed in 2006 and conformed to all the rules is not now “legal” because the rules have changed, the fosse itself is OK it’s just requires a 60 sqm epondage to be constructed for a cottage that in all likelyhood won’t be occupied.

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Lawrence… you say that the cottage isn’t likely to be occupied (but who knows about the future)…

One way of avoiding doing the drainage for the existing fosse of the separate cottage (if you really don’t want to do it)… might be to have the cottage building redesignated as not-habitation (or whatever the correct wording) … and removing from it all traces of habitation (sanitation,kitchen, bathroom, etc etc). If the building then becomes a basic “barn” type…for storage/garden shed sort of things… this might be the way to go…

There is newbie in the commune… who plans on making the solidly-built barn into a house and the ruins of the tumbledown cottage… well, he is discussing his options… :wink:

When we sold our 8 year old property in the Lot in 2011 we needed to supply the buyer with certain certificates one of which was from SPANC. They came along and even though they approved the new fosse in 2002 when our villa was built they still insisted that we modify the fosse to the latest specification which we subsequently did. So, if owner wants top dollar he has to provide correct certificate for the fosse, if not he must reduce the price by the relevant amount or not sell the property. Even near us in the Lot some French families, mainly peasant farmers were still without any form of fosse whatsoever and all their effluent just flowed into the nearest ditch and soaked away, this is not unusual in rural France which in some places is 50 years behind the times! The French at times have one law for themselves and one for immigrants!

Brian…

I think you may be misunderstanding things ???

Here in Fance, a person, from whatever country and obviously including France, falls under the obligation to update a non-conforming Fosse when they buy a property…not aimed at immigrants… it catches everyone… :grinning:

Hi Stella, You believe what you want, We lived in Lalbenque in the Lot for 8 years and I can assure you that the powers to be made things very difficult for us to begin our life there. We chose a bad place to move to from England, they were so far behind the times it was unreal. We were glad to leave in the end!

Oh dear… sad that you had such a bad experience…perhaps a little more investigation prior to moving would have shown up the pitfalls…

hopefully you are happier wherever you have chosen to live now…:slight_smile:

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This is a really interesting subject as many of the properties I have been looking at need a new fosse septique to comply with current regulations.
There is a very useful page of information especially regarding the rules and regulations affecting French properties on this site: Sewage Treatment - Septic Tanks - FRANCE

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Hi Wendy…

Yes, this is an interesting link and useful being in English… although some of the comments are not quite correct for 2017… it does give folk some ideas of how things might work out.

As always… check/discuss with the Mairie… let them point the way… :grinning:

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The article is close but the costs are not up to date, I couldn’t see a date for the article either.

Hi, it seems it may be slightly out of date, but hopefully gives some direction. As Stella says always best (and presumably a necessity anyway) to go to the Mairie.

Hello - I am new to this site and in need of some help. My husband and I are in the process of buying a house in the Charente-Maritime. We are negotiating the items in the compromis de vente at this time. Our offer on the house took into consideration that the sanitation is completely out of compliance, we made them bring in SPANC and get an estimate for the new system (a mini-treatment plant that will cost upwards of 10,000 euros) before we made an offer on the property. The compromis at this stage, however, does not include any language requiring them to empty the puisard (my husband says this is a septic tank without any drainage) before the acte de vente, and we know from the estimate that emptying it would be an extra charge. We feel like the owners should empty the puisard before the sale, and want to include language in the compromis to that effect. My husband says he read somewhere that is the law. Any help on this topic would be really appreciated!

Hi Kim

Looking at the government site… the vendeur only needs to justify (prove) the state of the fosse …

Le vendeur d’une habitation en assainissement non collectif a l’obligation de justifier de l’état de son installation, à compter du 1er janvier 2011.

Un contrôle a déjà eu lieu : le vendeur doit annexer à la promesse de vente ou à défaut à l’acte authentique, le document (daté de moins de trois ans au moment de la vente) établi à l’issue du contrôle et délivré par le SPANC. 

Aucun contrôle n’a eu lieu : le vendeur ou un représentant contacte le SPANC afin de convenir d’un rendez-vous.

This is the site to check out…

http://www.assainissement-non-collectif.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/usagers-r2.html