V weird, people's perceptions of accents - in Germany I am told I must come from Hannover (Never set foot there, learnt German at home/school/uni in Freiburg...) people refuse to believe I am Scottish & will go ON about it (v irritating) when I speak Dutch I sound German, when I speak Spanish & Italian I'm usually asked after a bit if I'm Dutch or German... In Arabic & Persian I get told "OOoh you talk like the television" (??!!)
OK, not French but my father was based in Cologne when I was born and my mother worked for NAAFI. Because there were no married quarters then we were billeted a flat in nearly city centre. My parents had very rolled Scots Rs, kind of errrr, plus I was with a child minder who had been a primary school teacher with about five German children she also looked after. In the local dialect I picked up from them, 'Bleckfoess', much of it is like Dutch, so gutteral with pronounced R sounds but the Hochdeutsch 'Nana' insisted on was with round rolls. The consequence is that when we moved to London later, the Souf London accent I acquired had rolls in it that normally are not there. My French, Greek and Latin came out sounding like German orally and to this day when I get up steam and my French is better than other times people think I am Spanish. Strangely though, having mainly learned Spanish in Peru where rolling is far, far less than in parts of Spain, that is the one with least pronounced 'R's. My daughter is beginning to get German from me and one of the teachers from a college in Bergerac who heard her told my OH that her pronunciation is exaggerated! Hah! If anybody ever hears her Ticinese Italian then I wonder what they will say about that!So we have two bilingual children, one becoming tri- gradually and taking moree for granted, with a mother whose English, her main working language, is her fourth language and a father whose French is his fourth language. Consequence is that on the one hand the girls are just unaware of languages the way other people are and take it for granted everybody should speak them, however it get sticky with teachers who do not know English as well as a nine year old, are likely to be picked up for using local French (vint instead of vingt, etc) and then start to translate Dora the Explorer's Spanish, although she has never learned the language! We have actually been mildly reprimanded for 'over exposing' them to too many languages. That is strange to say to Swiss folk who learn three of the country's four languages from age six on to begin with then have English chucked in at 10. I think rhotacism is a bit like my OH's colour blindness, there are many explanations but most of them seem to miss the point that individuals are what they are for inexplicable reasons, so move on...
Thanks Tracy! I grew up in both (constantly back & forth) and my parents spoke both at home - my Fr mother spoke fluent English with a stereotypical Fr accent & my Scottish father spoke fluent French with a stereotypical English accent (but much better than Jane Birkin). I speak Fr like my mother & Eng like my father so the non-native speaker's accent clearly has no effect. I never thought of them as 2 languages, for me it was just like saying vous & tu, you simply spoke a certain way to some people. Until I was about 10 or 11 I assumed everyone was like my family.
My daughter used to pronounce her r's fine when she was in England. We came to France when she was 4 and now she says w's instead of r's ! I do think it's something to do with growing up in France. I hope she will re-learn to say her r's properly in English as she gets older... but if she doesn't que sera I guess!
The kids would pronounce it 'furwing'! phonetically I'd guess you say 'Therling' the French tend to say 'Furlang'
Either way, it's easier than my nom de jeune fille - 'Kirkbright', that was so difficult, especially when I had to spell it. Did you grow up in France or the UK Véronique? and what did your parents speak at home?
I am a franglais kid (bilingual from birth) & I don't think being bilingual has anything to do with rhotacism - mine is fairly mild & hasn't done me or Woy Jenkins any harm (I try not to think about Jonathan Woss). No issues in French & none of my children (all bilingual too) have any problem with Rs in either language.
I'm interested in the pronunciation of your surname Tracy - I wouldn't hear an R in it at all.
I won't make any bad-taste jokes about knowing your Rs from your elbow.
Hi, my youngest did exactly this too. He was the only one who learned to read and write in French too, but that may not have anything to do with it. He could say the 'r' sound on it's own, with some difficulty, but always said the 'w' sound in words no matter how hard he tried. I think he started it at about 5 and it gradually went away, at a guess it stopped completely by the time he was about 10 (he's 16 now and since I have four of them I forget the details of these things!) So... some exercises might be a good plan but I would also suggest not worrying about it too much, at least not yet.
OF the top of my head it was 'Run rabit run' song, and 'around the rugged rock , the ragged rascal ran'. We did loads of them just for fun and found a kindle book for kids to download for free.
My five year old does it as well and we've only been here a month so I don't think it's the French influence:) Pretty common I think. But I actually panicked that her brother was lagging in his language (he's 3.5) so took him in for an eval right before we left where they told me he was one point within normal! Anyway, I'll ask the woman who evaluated him for a few exercises.
So far so good with our kids.... Although I want to say that I've seen some of these same things from their cousins growing up in the states, so likely not a big worry!
yes 'Th' is sometimes a problem too - comes out 'd' apart from that she's doing really well with her speech - do you remember which tongue twisters you did Tracy?
I wouldn't worry about it too much my 8 yr old daughter did it (and still does occasionally) and my 6 year old son also can't pronounce them correctly yet. We explained to my daughter it was normal for French children to do this - she also had a problem with 'th' - but in England, it was only babies that can't say 'th' and 'r'. With a family name of 'Thurling' is was starting to be an issue. We practised with tongues twisters and so on and eventually she got the hang of it and now it only happens when she is tired but both her languages slip then as well. In my opinion, it seems to be one of the issues of bilingualism, that they seem to be marginally late in reaching some English language markers but they get there eventually. Problem is that my son has eventually lost his two bottom teeth so he is lisping as well now :-)
my 4 year old does this too Emma, very interested in other people's experiences - perhaps there are some exercises that can be done?
Hi,
My 6 year old daughter seems to have a problem pronouncing her r's in english. They sound more like w's. I wanted to get her some online speech therapy and wondered if anyone else had any good recommendations?
No worries - you're more than welcome to tell people to "go to your page" etc. - it's just that we like to keep the site tidy and the paying advertisers happy :)
Sorry about that Catharine, no problem at all!
Aha, no link after all but I will try to include it on my page, should you be keen.
Caroline - it's fine to put the link on your page but not elsewhere on the site - see your introductory message if you're not clear so I have removed the link - but in any case I couldn't get it to open? Although that may have just been me being thick...!
Hello Hello Out There,
I thought I would through my hat into the mix in this group. There are many interesting discussions about providing English children living in France with a wide variety of activities and resources. Personally, as a long time Primary School Teacher, now living in Herault, whilest teaching English to French children and adults has been hugely rewarding, I now find myself actually missing my little groups of eager beavers grappling with the mysteries of literacy! I would actually love nothing more than to assemble a group or even two of primary aged children to boost their existing literacy skills. Teaching writing to this age group has been my life long passion! I live in 34 but would travel 30 k or so from Ganges to fulfill this urge. Cheekily I am attaching my mini flyer and would love to hear from any interested parents and children.
Enthusiastically, your friendly local booster of English!
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