I thought making sure the people, not just winners or losers, got everything they wanted and need was being positive. It's the constant pitting of one "camp" against the other, and this is not directed at you personally, which achieves nothing. The suggestion was that the people of the UK decide if the terms are okay, not simply to be told by the government "This is it. Deal with it" when it's already signed and stamped. That to me is democracy. I just have a feeling deals will thrashed out that won't necessarily benefit anyone except MPs and corporations.
How many times will the in crowd expect us to vote till they get their own way. We voted, they lost thats how it works. Or is a ploy to grind us down till we get fedup. what sort of majority will either side except. 55/45 or maybe 60/40 or even 65/35. We can go on for ever which will suit the in crowd. And for myself the NHS lies did not pesuade me to vote out ,it was the continued interferance from Brussels as how we should live and obey Mr Junicker.
I repeat. This is not a vote on in / out. This is nothing to do with leavers /remainers. This is to ensure the UK population aren't forced to accept whatever's thrown at them by the government as a done deal - they get a say on whether it's acceptable or not.
No I haven't- but will do - good idea. X
I think that the whole discussion is at present rather 'academic'. The situation that prevails at present is NOT the situation as it will be at the time of the UK actually leaving the EU (if that does actually happen).
Whatever happens (whether the UK leaves or not), the situation and behaviour of the EU will change. The referendum result has sounded warning bells loud and clear, not only in Brussels, but in national capitals all over Europe. Other countries have elections looming, and centerist or center right governments do not want their vote split by far right parties seeking to leave the EU. The Austrian presidential election is scheduled for a re-run, and the far right might just win it.
The UK PM (whoever it turns out to be) isn't going to press the Article 50 button until 2017 at the earliest. In the meantime there will be behind the scenes pressure from all over Europe that may well see Mr Juncker retiring on health grounds (and some of his like minded friends as well in all probability).
The EU wants the UK to stay because of the money we pay into their budget (2nd largest net contributor). Without that money the EU will have a huge problem in paying out all the regional, agricultural, and other subsidies that it currently uses as 'incentives' for certain countries to remain as members. So what if the EU itself changes direction ? It's not beyond the realms of possibility that it may decide to give up some of it's 'competancies' voluntarily. Who knows ----- They may even decide to adjust the 'Freedom of Movement' rules if enough pressure is applied by various different governments.
Politicians of all nationalities like being in power, and even more than that they like staying in power. The UK referendum result is a 'shot heard all around the world', but in the countries of Europe it is more like a sonic boom ! The UK is changing politically as we write here, and the EU is changing politically as well --- it will just take a little longer to become visually apparent.
Therefore I think that we should all pause for breath. Let us all be patient, and in the meantime 'read, mark, learn, and inwardly digest'. Nothing is even going to start to change for at least 6 months. Let us wait, be watchfull, and see in what ways the scene changes before we embark on any decisions about how to best deal with a future situation that has not even really begun to settle out yet at all.
May peace be with you all.
Righto Valerie,
then I would urge everyone to google Geraint Davies MP (@GeraintDaviesMP) on Twitter, read/scroll through all the recent comments and tweets to include the prominent ones from David Lammy, his bezzy mate, (now well known for trying to demand a 2nd referendum on the results of the last, not this 'latest' proposal) and come to their own conclusions whether or not this latest referendum demand is not trying to undermine the democratic EXIT vote recently held. And while you're at it you may want to check how many times in a puerile cartoon game he has 'slapped' michael Gove...It pains me as a Welsh man to feel appalled at the lack of leadership and statesmanlike demeanor of this MP in this instance but, really, you expect some who put full thought into their vote to follow as welsh mutton all this??!!
And by the way, his constituents voted for ..... out.
Catherine -I am sorry for your lost vote- I suspect that there are always a small percentage of such mistakes in any election which would affect both sides of the arguments?
Jane -I wonder if those who have lived abroad for more than 15 years, without retaining property in GB, have realistically any right to a vote, (duck behind the barricades!!!) given that they probably have no intention to return.
Well said David (Harpin).
'Brussels' will be delighted to hear that some of the 'losers' will keep pushing for a more referenda!!
Robert, our major financial interests are in UK, as are those of the great majority of retirees living in EU countries. We have family in UK and we are British citizens. This referendum was majorly influenced by those in UK who had not bothered to vote for more than fifteen years. The phrase use it or lose it comes to mind. All British citizens should be treated equally.
Sorry Jane -I'm not familiar with the voting histories of individuals who voted -just pleased to see a higher percentage engaging.
So you think that if you live in the EU it is right to lose the vote after fifteen years, but not if you do not bother to vote in UK for more than twenty?
If you look on this forum and many others you will see Brits engaging in political discussions and pressure groups, when by their own admission many who voted to leave had not had a political thought or concern for years. They were seduced by the false promise of more money for the NHS and did not have the political nous to realise that they were being taken for a ride.
I'm sorry, Jane, but your comments could be subscribed to the remain camp, in our household, with the actions now of so many 'losers'. Therefore the idea of constantly drubbing us leavers STILL as uninformed thickos isn't going to wash. From our experiences after the vote I would firmly say that the leavers did indeed put a lot of thought into it (it was democracy as an issue in our household, absolutely nothing to do with the NHS or the appalling and repeated threats), and the leavers are increasingly taking exception to this myth of uninformed vote decision. Very insulting indeed.
E.G....I have yet to meet anyone in our circle that watched the financial market, including the 2 relevant FTSE's closely for a month before the vote, and still doing so twice daily. Nor have I knowledge of anyone else that made a point, after this referendum, of taking the trouble to watch the Parliamentry debates specifically held over 3 days in Ireland, Scotland and Wales, to fully discuss the ramifications of this remarkable result. Hours of our time but worth it to cut through the 'floss n' dross' of the assumed take on the ramifications of the vote.
Would we still vote for exit?...in a flash.
David, obviously you came to your decision after a lot of thought, which cannot be said for those who have not engaged in political discussion or voted for twenty years or more.
To promise to remove the fifteen year disqualification in your manifesto and then not to implement that before such an important constitutional issue is appalling.
Yes Jane -I do
One could of course argue that it's the individual's choice to keep a foot in both camps, living in one country but having their financial interests in another, and they should be aware when they commit to that lifestyle that there are risks attached. Divided loyalties make life complicated. I'm not happy with the outcome of the referendum but I do feel it was right for the decision to be made by those who live in the UK, not those who invest in it. It's around 10 years since I lived there and already I realise I'm out of touch. Friends and acquaintances who still live there talk about problems (yes, including EU-immigrant-related) that I never encountered when I was there. So I have to doubt whether anyone who's lived out of the UK for 15 years or longer could really claim to have their finger on the pulse any more and to know what it's like living there now.
Anna, have you not heard of the BBC?
Plus we have families and friends and make return visits. We live in France, not on Mars.
Robert, you are totally beyond belief.
Are you seriously saying that watching the BBC is just like being there? I'm not talking about keeping up with the news, I'm talking about how life changes in hundreds of tiny ways that add up to a significant shift. I have family and friends and make return visits too, and that's exactly how I came to the opinion that I'm out of touch, because every time I go back I notice differences in the mood "on the street".
If you're in frequent contact/discussion with family members who may be ageing far too rapidly or who are working and raising children at the same time or any circumstance that springs to mind, why should you be precluded from adding your support by voting for what you hope may best benefit them simply because you're across the Channel? You're trying to help their future, not 'interests'.
Hmm. One person one vote?
Sorry,I didn't mean to upset people and obviously circumstances are different, but my reaction was really against the notion that having financial interests in a country is somehow a reason to be able to vote.