High Court rules Government cannot trigger Article 50 without parliamentary approval

Your arguments are going around in circles and getting nowhere. As the pound falls, German cars become relatively more expensive, inflation affects the cost of everyday goods and Britain has lost the preferable terms that it currently enjoys with the EU countries it will be amazing if, as you believe, the spending power of the man in the British street will be able sufficient to afford the luxuries that you say they will be queueing up to buy.

“We will ask the EU to pay Britain 13 billion pounds for access to the UK market”

Aber natĂŒrlich! Laß doch den Heiopopeio, uns ist es völlig egal!
In other words, nonsense. That’s most likely what the Germans will say.

The trouble is I think they believe that it (their version of reality) is true.

Terrifying :fearful:

So David you think that Britain will collapse and die. You do not think Britain can survive outside of the EU.
I find that amazing, especially from a man that is probably English. Britain has always survived because we have people of vision and we’re well know for our expertise in finance, electronics and so many world beating industries. Formula 1 leaders all have there factories in the U.K. Lotus develop suspension for the best cars in the world because the genius Colin Chapman lead the world in design, even Mercedes uses his protocol.
If we come out of the corruption of the EU we will not only survive but thrive in a tariff free zone. We will not stagnate with bankrupt France and Italy. If German cars are too expensive in the U.K. What a shame we will carry on driving British built cars. We have 5 cars and all are British. I once had an Audi Avant, the new car was so bad and even the manufactures could not sort it out. I sent it to Lotus, they dropped the whole suspension out and found it was put together wrong. So much for German cars, would never buy another one.

Why tie yourself to a dying Union when the world is growing, the Brits are many things but we’re not stupid.

I think your right about the right wing press Jane, it’s a pity we don’t observe what the the Turks are doing, they have the right idea. Sod freedom of the press they should tow the line and keep their views to themselves. The Conservative government should censure all the news like the BBC does.

How is Britain going to generate the income that it will need to maintain its position in the world order? Yes, Colin Chapman was a genius but he was a garagist developing cars in the 1950s. His ethos might live on in the modern Lotus cars but that is about all. Formula One is a business. It would not take much for the whole circus to upsticks and relocate taking their multinational workforce with them. Britain cannot compete as a motor manufacturer on the world stage.
You are correct, I was born in Britain. I have, however, spent most of my working life in Europe, particularly in Germany. That has allowed me to see the comparison in work ethic, quality and skills training between the average German and the average Brit. Believe me there is a big difference and not the way around you insist it must be. Coincidentally I had a Audi that I didn’t particularly like so I swapped it for something else. That too was German, it is superb as is my everyday Volkswagen. There is nothing wrong with having belief in your country but at the same time we live in a data driven world and for the Britain that you are expecting to emerge in the future the numbers just don’t add up. Narrow minded, blinkered, tunnel vision. They all fit choose whichever one you want.

Now I’ve heard it all. You can’t argue with


Good Morning David, I still think you’re wrong in a lot of area’s. For one in reality Britain at the end of the day will still be part of Europe trading as it is now with Europe. But we will also have free trade with the rest of the world and be stronger than ever. Free trade will be the best for Britain as we need to retain our democratic rights.
Like you I was born in England but spent my working life traveling around Europe and mainly Scandinavia designing and developing new commercial refrigeration products for shops restaurants and commercial kitchen’s etc. I certainly wasn’t blinkered, as a lateral thinker always thought out of the box.

In Britain you grossly underestimated the strong will of the people and are out of touch. The Germans are very traditional and are not at all like British people. That’s why Formula 1 will always be in the UK as the main hub because we have the best designers and engineers. You said about Lotus, remember they have another company appart from the car manufacturer, Lotus Engineering which is a world leader in innovation and engineering, and lots of your German cars use suspension designed by them today.

I live in Europe and have done so for many years, mainly in Rome and Belgium and a summer home in France. I see what’s going on in Europe, the eurozone is changing, since Italy joined the euro the country has gone into decline and so has most of the Latin countries, Germany has gained strength without a doubt but Italy is in a very poor way with many families struggling to live on their wage. The immigration into Italy is terrible with crime rising even higher.

Something needs to change and certainly Britain needs to control its own borders. I’m not tunnel visioned, I always look at the big picture and certainly do not see Britain in this version of Europe or part of it. In fact if the EU doesn’t change it will fail to exist likewise for the euro too.

You live in France David, tell me how is France going to trade out of its bankrupt state with it losing a fortune every year. Doesn’t it frighten you.
Paris is looking to take British banks from London, banks are not stupid and move to a country which has an unstable government that needs massive reforms. Frankfurt may take a bit, but that’s a possibility for the future.

There’s going to be big changes in all of Europe as we live in very unstable times, who knows what the future holds for all of us

There’s nothing wrong with confidence. I wish you good luck in your endeavours. Your arguments have not convinced me one bit.

These are the people upon whom you base your trust in the future. Good luck.

May I make some observations before I comment:

  1. The Brexit ministers and active campaigners want to Leave the EU irrespective of any political, economic and social damage it does to the UK as they believre it is in the UK’s best interest. That is what I will define as a Hard Brexit (We are out FO the EU, we will do our own thing!)

  2. The Referendum votes were as follows:

  1. 17,410 K to Leave
  2. 16,140 K to Remain
  3. 12,942 K didn’t vote

There is no question that the UK is going to Leave the EU but there was not an overwhelming vote to do so.

I am NOT, repeat NOT, say again NOT, trying to change the result, but arguably there were 29,082 K who voted to Remain or who didn’t care one way or the other.

I think a more reasonable interpretation is that the electorate wanted to leave the EU but not on what we now see as Hard Terms, else there would have been more taking the effort to vote to Leave, but on terms that achieved that objective but not on terms that potentially damage the best interests of the UK.

  1. The Leave campaign rhetoric and the political and economic reality are not compatible.

As I see it the Brexit objectives are well known

  1. Stop contributing to the EU budget
    
  2. Control of our Borders
    
  3. Sovereignty of Parliament (Freedom from the ECJ, not the ECHR)
    
  4. Freedom to negotiate trade deals as we choose.
    

Now the speculation.

a) The Leave ministers either do not have a plan even now, which I think unlikely, but they know that if they presented the terms they want to Parliament and the electorate, they would not obtain approval and thus they want to stop that at all costs.

b) They calculate, that they will come back in 2 years with a deal that has to be approved by Parliament. By then the real medium term impact of Brexit will be apparent. In my opinion that will be broadly negative, inflation, increased unemployment, debt defaults by the electorate with a very definite and marked downturn in the economy which will probably encourage the electorate and Parliament to take a more positive view of the EU

c) The terms will in no way meet the campaign rhetoric or the objectives of the Brexit ministers, but since they are the ones doing the negotiation that will meet the terms of their agenda.

So, they will return to Parliament which will be faced with two choices:

i) accept the terms negotiated which I think will in practice say, no matter how much modified, will in in practice say the UK accepts the basic 4 freedoms of the EU

Just to spell those out the so called 4 Freedoms of the EU are:

  1. Free Movement of Goods
    
  2. Freedom of movement for workers
    
  3. Right of establishment and freedom to provide services
    
  4. Free movement of capital
    

http://www.europeanpolicy.org/en/european-policies/single-market.html
And yes we will be contributing to the EU budget.
In other words, it has all been a complete waste of time

ii) Reject the terms negotiated and leave the EU and in effect obtain by default a hard Brexit which as I say is their strategic objective.

As regards the High Court ruling, it does not stop Brexit, merely that Parliament must be consulted before Article 50 is enacted. (I am not competent to comment on NO’s insight, though I assume the court and counsel on both sides must have been aware of this point.)

The behaviour of the Press is disgraceful but much as one might expect, but the comments by the Brexit ministers and Eurosceptic MPs are a disgrace. Mrs M is quite right to slap them down. In any event one of the key issues of the campaign, in m y opinion the only argument that has merit, was the Sovereignty of Parliament. We don’t wish to be ruled by Diktat from Brussels and thus we don’t wish to be ruled by Diktat from Downing St.

John Humphrys on his recent broadcast about Aberfan said:

“People in power must always be challenged to ensure that they are carrying
out their roles to the benefit of the public. They must not be allowed to
get away with being arrogant, incompetent or cutting costs which put workers
and communities at risk. There are still many in politics and business who
pompously believe that they can do whatever makes them more money or gives
them more power”

I doubt any of us would seek to disavow the above.

I would add that MPs and Ministers should not try to abrogate the rights of
the electorate, through their elected representatives, to decide on an
irreversible course of action that will impact the UK, Europe and maybe the
world for generations to come without the most careful scrutiny and
forethought.

Peter S

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Britain was a big fish years ago when it had an Empire & could include the products from that empire in its resume. The Empire is long gone as has most of the specialist industries you refer to. A third of the UK’s infrastructure including energy and transport is owned overseas. Lotus is owned by Proton, a Malaysian company.
“We will not stagnate with bankrupt France and Italy.” Been down a UK town high street recently?

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That is a non sequitur.

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I agree, we need freedom to trade and means with all of Europe. That will be just fine.

I’m now even more confused, it is very difficult to see exactly what you mean. What are you agreeing with? That the statement I quoted is a non sequitur?

I also find this extremely worrying, assuming it is a genuine expression of the views you hold and not satire.

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Hi Vero a little satire. After all you cannot have democracy with newspapers only when you agree with them. The ministers did the right thing just to ignore it. Geof

Guess what the UK will NOT be getting from the EU after brexit?
Freedom to trade!!!
The UK has effectively told the EU to get stuffed & has said that it does not want to play anymore. Do brexiteers imagine that the two finger insult given by them will be tolerated by a far more powerful & diverse society & will still be treated as a favoured child? The UK has nothing that the EU cannot get elsewhere. Britain has nothing to offer so it will be on its own. Anyone who thinks that the UK can still have all the advantages without any of the pains is living in cloud cuckoo land!

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But that’s exactly what they think Mark. They think that as well as Britain financially propping up the EU for all those years they, especially Germany, will not survive without being able to sell their cars and other high quality manufactured goods to the British customers lining up to buy them. They believe that this demand will be enough to force the EU to agree to Britain’s terms.

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