Prélèvements sociaux

I agree Carol (I was also trying to be less 'negative' about France)

I understand its the French way of doing things...ie paying something you dont owe before you can fight to get it back......but there is also an element of, if you pay it, there is some belief that you owe it. It is not logical, not even French logic. It means they always have the interest on payments that they are not entitled to. I would suggest when you get the money back that you shouldnt' have had to pay in the first place, you wont receive the accumulated interest...true eh...not logical but financially cute.

Good information, Jef. Being a yank in France has its idiosyncrasies that the EU expats do not have. Like you, I am still mystified about what the charge was for in the first place. The only answer I get from Fiducial; "It was a mistake". I will pass the tax treaty provisions on to my accountants in the event they are not aware of it. Thanks.

This is the route that I took. My accountant, who I contacted immediately after receiving the avis d'imposition, wrote a protest letter to my SIP with a copy to the Tresorie disputing the charges on the basis of the French-American tax treaty. I am a US citizen, so this will not apply to my cousins.

He also requested that I be allowed to defer the payment under Article L277 of the Livre des procedures fiscale (LPF) which basically states that the tax payer can request to defer payment of contested amounts on the basis of an explicit request for such pending a ruling.

To take up another strain in this exchange, had it not been for the intervention of my accountant I would not have been aware of either the tax treaty provisions or Article L277. His services, however, do not come cheaply, but it is exactly for this type of service that accountants are paid. As his bill amounted to some 15% of the contested amount, I considered this to be a fair exchange.

The question of why I received the bill in the first place certainly remains valid, but truly blessed are those who have not, at some point in their lives, had to contest a decision by their national tax authorities. This particular failing is thus not uniquely French.

Hi Doreen,

The forfait logement is an amount that they add to the total of your income / resources. It is a set amount, decided by them. This amount is meant to be reviewed in January each year.

Normally, people that receive help with paying their rent have this forfait logement added to their total income when applying for things like the CMU-C, or other benefits, it does not corresepond to the amount of housing benefit they receive, but is a set rate per person.

It is also used for people that own their own homes too, so when you calculate your resources inorder to make an application for the CMU-C they will add this amount to that total. Which can result in you being over the threshold when you thought you were below.

Les personnes hébergées à titre gratuit, les locataires profitant d’aides financières au logement et les propriétaires ont un « forfait logement » qui se rajoutera à leurs ressources prises en compte pour leur éligibilité à la CMU complémentaire.

Totally agree! Way back in 91 I had a big problem with my Mairie and a local notaire. They tried to fob me off so without telling them I went to a lawyer in Paris (by letter!) who made the investigations and proved I was being duped. I demanded compensation, they told me it was impossible, do I demanded the right to address the council, got my way and £6000 compensation including legal costs. "Do not go still into the night!"

Hi Don,

Yes, that definitely makes a difference and it's sure that 100€ is a lot easier than 1000€+ PS.

'I do not mind paying my fair share, but being gouged is another thing' -
I totally agree with you!

Vicky - I have yet to pay over Euro 100.00 per year for Fiducial services... and they take care of everything regarding French taxation. That beats rolling over for an unnecessary Euro 1000.00+ prelevement. This is not the first time they have saved me a respectable chunk of change. I do not mind paying my fair share, but being gouged is another thing.

The unfortunate thing is, not everyone can afford a professional French accountant.

Although, I'm sure there wouldn't be half the problems, if everyone had the benefit of a professional acountant!

That's the standard procedure here, having to still pay, even if there is a dispute. I think I mentioned before, it's a matter of pay first and ask questions after.

Perhaps, it's because they have to receive the payment inorder that it doesn't show as being unpaid and / or they want to be the ones making the decision on if you should have paid or not. Then they will process a refund, if necessary afterwards.

The advice being given from other expats was 'don't question it just pay' possibly because this way things are 'easier'. However, obviously if you think there is a problem you should try to do something about it. Although, there can be implications for witholding payments here, it's the same with witholding rent, it's just not possible. It has to be sorted out in a different way.

It doesn't always seem logical, but there must be some kind of logic. The French just have a different way of thinking, a different way of life, which is also meant to make up part of what attracted us here in the first place!

That's good news, about there being no social charges due if you get ACS.


You're right about the amount of the cheque depending on age -I was suggesting a certain age by saying 'retired folks' :)

True...and I am a beer drinker...so would make sense!

In my opinion Brian...yes! Often more money is taken by dispensing one month at a time. So its about profit. The average pharmacy gets to know the scripts they receive on a regular basis, and that is how they make sure they dont over order. Having so said, most receive daily deliveries....its the nature of the business. When I want a repeat script I just tell my pharmacist here who gets the script from the GP and I collect a 3 month supply. Simple and time saving for me. Everything should be aimed to make life easier for the patient, so you ask the question, 'what makes your life easier...visiting the GP monthly or getting scripts 3 or 6 months at a time' the patient (me!) says 3 months please...job done...simple. Anything else doesnt benefit me, the patient.

well Don I agree....but I am under a promise to not be negative about France....so er....I will say, thats bad luck Don....and I am sure the French authorities will sort it all out for you pronto...am sure it is a little oversight.........!

Doreen, third line down, last column on the right:

http://www.fxcentre.com/AverageRates-2011.pdf

Welcome to France, Carol. "They" had to have it pointed out to them that I didn't owe it. Left to their own devices the money would have gone into the treasury without a second thought. Fortunately my local Fiducial office is excellent with their customer service. I use Fiducial in the US, too. Unfortunately they are not so hot... and charge three times more.

Possibly for Brits....the scare factor. For us, moving here was a lifetime aim....it didnt work out for us. Looking at the rest of Europe, I honestly wouldn't be willing to take another punt in a Euro using country...I don't have faith in the Euro. Further afield? if we were younger, absolutely....but I have another 8 years before I retire..and husband already retired. Not willing to make another mistake...these mistakes are very expensive and if you are selling property, can take forever to sort out...

how weird is that? they know you shouldnt pay it...but have to pay it and later get it back....is this some sort of skewered logic?

My Fiducial office got back with me today. My Prélèvement was a mistake, but I would have never known this if I had not had Fiducial research it. They are going to have to write two letters before this is resolved. In the meantime I must pay this before the 15th. It will eventually find its way back home, or so I am told. The local Hotel des Impots was no help. It had to go higher up to find someone who could actually make a determination. I would strongly suggest that anyone who has received one of these out-of-blue demands, find a professional French accountant to help sort it out for you. I could have never done this on my own.

That's true Finn, l'ACS, I believe it's 500€ for retired folks.


By the way, if you are granted the ACS, does that make you liable for 'Prélèvements sociaux'?

The base cover, 70% is still provided by the UK.

I thought I'd mention PS again, seeing as that is the title of the thread!