Refugee crisis

It was meant as a critique of media and how they inform the public, but across the board.

Your comparison with 1920 through to 1945 and national socialism is absolutely spot on. Throw in a bit of Stalin's excesses in the Soviet Union and it is as close as spitting. Jack Werner's story is interesting at this point in time, as too the Kindertransport from 1938-40. That rescue operation brought about 9 -10,000 children from Austria, Czechoslovakia, Germany and Poland to the UK. About 7,500 of them were Jewish, eventually the UK had around 10,000 Jewish refugee children. A few hundred other children arrived before all of the European mainland was occupied or impassable although some did manage to get across Spain into Portugal and on to the UK. Private citizens or organisations had to guarantee payment for each child's care, education, and eventual emigration to another country. In return, the British government agreed to allow unaccompanied refugee children to enter the country on temporary travel visas. The understanding was that once the 'crisis' was over they should return home.

There is no actual reason why that basic principle should not be adopted with families and unaccompanied children given priority as then. Men travelling alone, and to an extent the few women also doing so, have many more options so should be lower down the list. Austria and Germany do fairly strict checks and issue ID cards that must be carried at all times. Whoever is caught without will have been warned they are likely to be expelled. The UK with its reluctance to have ID cards, which given how often we need more than one form of identity to do various things is nonsense, no system for processing people as simple as other countries find it to introduce one and seem to have some kind phobia about expelling/deporting people although they do it seven days a week and have done so for many years. Mechanisms, methods and so on need to be put in place, fair enough, but despite this having been happening for a long time nothing has been done. Way back as far as Jim Callaghan the UK had people advising (within the UK, not 'foreigners') that that should be done. I have a sneaking suspicion they are still not listening. All along the situation is getting worse. It may not lead to WW3 but something nasty perhaps, however the equivalent of 1933 has already been unleashed.

Finally, most of the refugees at present come from countries at war. The migrants seeking new countries for economic reasons are now less than 5% of the people on the move, some of those actually have good reason to go elsewhere but if there were proper checks and controls that would be done with for the greatest part. As for helping people in their own countries during conflict, it is always happening but is somewhere between difficult and impossible. I have been involved in going to front lines for such things as trying to do something about the street children stranded in a city with street fighting all around them. The fighting is one thing but the chaos it causes is almost worse when trying to work on the ground because who you try to work with needs to keep moving in order not to become a sitting target... Pragmatically, I doubt it really possible in many cases.

So many different ways to look at this.

Of course each and every one of us wants to help.

Many of us are struggling with health problems or finances....as many of us

are getting past " our prime".....

When I left UK I contributed 60.000 £ TO THE BON VOYAGE POT.

simply because I worked longer and harder and made a few good decisions.

Now I am still working.....way past my sell by date.

Not sure if I can take on much more responsibility.

But I feel that my country....my dear old England should be helping...

There are many, many people who could afford to shed a few million pounds

and put it towards helping these people.

We are the little people who ran away to retire from stress and to live the rest of our lives

we are not leaders; we neither have the power or the energy.

If we manage to help in a small way it will make us feel a little better....perhaps.

Nothing more.

Shirley,

How do you come to the conclusion that I am against countries taking in GENUINE refugees?? I'm sure that most migrants really need to escape the hell that their homes have become & nobody on this site should dare to insinuate that I think otherwise! I'm just saying that some that we see do not seem to appreciate the problem that thousands of people arriving in a short period & throwing themselves on the mercy of state aid may find that the state will struggle & the UK is no different, although there are no tented camps there as migrants are either accommodated in hostels or hotels. I do feel for those who have lived in the UK all their lives who do not get the same treatment, though.

The EU itself drew up rules for the treatment of refugees which Hungary actually tried to follow it was faced with an ever increasingly hostile migrant situation & public damnation from other members who have decided to throw the rules out of the window. Maybe it is necessary but Hungary was only following the rules.

I do not vote in UK elections as I do not live there. As a french resident it is what happens in France which will affect me most. I have never supported Labour who seem to want a "level playing field" for everyone which to me means lowering standards so that complete dimwits can still pass exams & go to university & no school should encourage the gifted.

Brian, bless him, may indeed be trying to keep politics out of this discussion but to write "Oooooh! The first two paragraphs come straight out of the legends of various media I need not name." in answer to my post does imply that my views are heavily influenced by media sources whose politics do not align with his, So an oblique reference which he could not resist!

Nobody is looking at the longer term - I see parallels between the rise of Nazism in the thirties with jewish refugees & what is happening in Syria & surrounding areas. I am reminded of Jack Werner, an Austrian who escaped the Nazis, becoming a refugee. Check this link http://www.examiner.com/article/remembering-jack-werner-the-jewish-immigrant-that-fought-wwll .

When the area is left to IS & they expand their terror when will it stop? Could it lead to WW3? Should we not be doing more to help the migrants in their homeland?

Bit of a drag, but go through this thread and you will find several initiatives who might be able to inform or help you. Otherwise Tuesday is but a short time in what is going to be a long lasting situation sadly.

So to be clear in order to know what we can constructively do and give it is the Mairies who are coordinating things? Ours is closed all weekend now and I can’t get there till Tuesday is there anywhere else immediately I can give supplies/donations?

My 1st reply of day for once. I waited to see if there would be an end of discussion on the plight. well done you BM for starting it, so I have just read carefully through all the posts and see some of both sides of argument, mainly those who all want to help by ‘doing something’ in their own small way’.

I have to say I found some of the remarks on the ‘don’t and won’t’ side of the debate here. To be spurious, selfish and definitely ‘unhumanitarian’ within the context of the whole tragic events that have unfolded over recent months. If refugees arrived in my village, as they mainly seem to speak English, I would definitely offer my services at the Mairies bureau, in any way I could to help to the best of my ability with translation if needed. I don’t mind admitting it gives me a ‘feel good’ factor if I can help anyone, whatever their nationality or status! I could offer bedroom space in my home, to a family with young children if it would help, even if my cow of a landlady, tried to do me for ‘subletting’! I would be prepared to hire taxi to take them to local town and do some shopping, all at my cost.



However a word of warning or caution. I looked at notices on my Mairies window late this afternoon warning about people knocking on doors to try and sell things, pointing out that we should never invite them in, and ask to see their Identity permission to be a ‘doorstep’ salesperson (hawkers, we used to call them decades ago in UK) if they didn’t have Any,to shut door on them - that Notice was dated 12 August.

'Strangely enough only yesterday morning I had one such knock and opened door to see who I would describe as a Roma, with a young girl about 11/12. they did not have the appearance of indigenous French I have seen in the small villages I’ve lived in. I didn’t want or need what she was selling and said so, so asked her wait while I got my purse. I didn’t have enough small change, it would have an insult, so with my only 20€ note on house, offered it but asking for 15 €15 change. She wasn’t interested! She just wanted to sell me whatever at whatever price I don’t know.my thought had just been to give her 5€ And she could keep her wares to sell elsewhere. But she didn’t want to know. I just gave up in the end and closed and locked the door. She knocked again a couple of minutes of later to offer me 10€ for my 20. When I said no and shut door, she kept knocking on window which I ignored! she just left. Thinking she’d gone to neighbors next,I’d had 2nd thoughts and thought ok I’ll give her 10. - lo and behold not up or down the road was she. So I don’t think she was a refugee, if she wasnt knocking on other doors! So ladies living alone, please take care whoever comes to your door.



Incidentally just been watching France24 News Magazine programme and it has just been said that 2 polls had been held in France, one before and one after picture of Aylan published - 56% in both polls voted against allowing the migrants in!
most French papers didn’t publish the picture! What does that tell us? One concentrated on the farmers tractors in Paris!


Mark R, I presume. (Given your reaction to many of Brian M’s remarks, specifically that he was trying to keeps politics OUT of it) which I’m not - that therefore you will be happy to vote at next General Election for Jeremy Corbyn, should he win the Labour Leadership contest as looks likely currently, given he wants to re- nationalize the railways and the banks as well as keep migrants out of UK? If he wins God knows what will happen to the markets and XR, that we,as expats, may well be reliant upon to bolster pensions.



No. I’m with the majority, anything I can do to help here in my village I will do so if needed. I intend going to ask at the Mairie bureau on Monday, if they plan to offer accommodation to refugees. And to offer my services if needed for English speaking help.



I have on TV

Nobody can ever be certain that he or she won't need help, nor is there any guarantee that there will be any help forthcoming from his or her original country if things go wrong elsewhere. The point though is that although there has been tension in Syria for a very long time (there already was when I lived there for a year in the 1980s) the country has imploded and getting out is the only way people see of surviving - and these are people just like you and me, with the same sort of way of life and aspirations.

Syria was a fairly prosperous country (not oil-rich) with a very long, civilised history, which invested heavily in education and where people were an awful lot more like southern Europe in their way of life than eg the Arabian peninsula and it isn't at all surprising that they see a possible future for themselves in Europe.

The situation Syrians find themselves in now and the situation of people within Europe who have chosen to move within Europe simply aren't comparable.

Many of the young men travelling alone are from ethnic and religious minorities, half a dozen sects of Islam, Druzes, Romani, nearly all Syrian Christians of whom almost the old 'ancestor' Coptic sects of all of Christianity were in Syria along with other sects and naturally Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, Greek Orthodox and even Mormons. Aylan Kurdi, the drowned boy, was really Aylan Shenu but the family had been allocated the name Kurdi by Turkish authorities. Kurdi means Kurd for us, their ethnicity. There are people of Greek ancestry, Assyrians, the Dom, Arabs, Kurds, Levantines and umpteen tribal groups. Two thirds of Syria is occupied in part or whole by IS, some ethnic and religious groups are automatically executed - men, women and children. There are Iraqi and Palestinian refugees who had sought refuge there who are being driven out with nowhere to go. There are other countries in upheaval as well. I've said it in an earlier comment already. Most people who flee their countries do because they have no choice, there may be a few IS people among them but not masses given that a lot of people know each other and strangers will not be trusted and probably given how afraid people are of IS, pure hatred of them would mean they would be betrayed, killed or something that would give them less chance of getting anywhere than anybody else. They are fleeing so-called safe places because like here nobody really wants them so they are not actually being treated well. They simply imagine it is better somewhere else. The young men are looking for work as quickly as possible, there are families behind many of them, probably the majority.

Syria was part of the Ottoman Empire from the 13 to 20 centuries, it was the end of the empire in 1922 that created modern Syria then that was interfered in by the French then went through rapid periods of political upheaval with military uprisings, coups and so on up until Assad eventually took control in the early 1970s but was very much pay-rolled by the USA and UK in order to keep them, like other countries in the region, from going communist. One European country or another has played such a big role in shaping the region, even deciding their borders and the names we know, during the 20 century until recently that in a way they owe a debt. Perhaps we can say that is being called in.

As for the contribution of individuals in whatever form including giving shelter, that is a matter of personal choice, conscience, compassion and such qualities that people can only decide as resources including their ability to cope with complete strangers allow. None of it is for us to say what is right or wrong. As for a life threatening wound to Europe, well I think almost the opposite, that is is sorting the wheat from the chaff and we are seeing which European countries have the vision and fortitude to act in the spirit of cooperation that has developed since 1945 as a means of making this a continent at peace after millennia of blood letting. There is too much of a shadow of the years after the first war and the excesses of Stalin and Hitler that are still too recent to consign to history. Simply to say holocaust at present is a reminder of the horrors of genocide.

I am professionally too close to what is happening to either keep out or not properly know the entire story as best I can. As said, it is individual choice what we do, but ultimately 99.9% of the people asking for help need it. The small minority hidden in the mass are naturally of concern, but preserving lives and quality of life for the majority is the priority. Whoever helps does it without being made to do so, the charitable spirit that gave us the likes of Nobel Peace Prize laureates and other great names known for their compassion and deeds.

Phan Thị Kim Phúc, yes she is now a doctor medicine in Canada but a dead child is lost to the world.

The Swiss money was 'donated' by lawyers representing the banks, it was some tens of millions of CHFs but only part of missing billions, including a couple of billion of diamonds bought in Bangkok that Uday Hussein had but who knows where they went. I think IOM got the money as part of working with the Iraqi diaspora. The rest would be very useful.

I also agree with Mark on this one, and make no apologies for it. OH and I feel it is essential that authorities swiftly process the arrivals into those with a genuine need for refuge, and those using the situation as an economic opportunity or, more frighteningly, members of IS that are in all high probability using this awful crisis to infiltrate without checks....why, eg, refuse to give your papers rather than destroy, or your fingerprints? Why flee Turkey, Greece and Italy, Hungary, etc, safe places for the moment, and use a lot of money to do so, in the mistaken belief that where they are going will treat them any better, afford them jobs and housing? It's a genuine question that needs sorting, as unless these people are made aware they are only welcome if they are genuine refugees, and that it may be a temporary stay until they can return, this whole scenario will ( and now is) turn to violence and aggression on a scale unseen up 'til now, by that vast arrival of fit, young and increasingly aggressive males.

Of course all of us would rather the idea of the generous West and its economy, but our system has been hard fought by generations over decades of war, sacrifice and hardship to get where the EU is today. Our young men in the past were required to stay/go and fight to retain the freedoms we enjoy. Why do the vast majority of young male migrants want to abandon their own cultures, family and country rather than stay and rectify their own wars and tribal differences? Brian will no doubt correctly point out western interference in middle-eastern and African matters, and I for one would dearly like to see the likes of Tony Blair and George Bush indicted for war crimes, but debating semantics and past issues is not going to solve this urgent crisis of what is happening on a massive and unsustainable scale.

And as to homes taking in refugees...what? Before that necessary processing of assessment of the genuine applicants from others? I'm afraid I wouldn't consider opening my own home at the moment to some of the arrivals, under the genuine concern I mat be helping to harbour a potential terrorist, and also because the male-dominant society the arrivals are coming from would not fit well under our particular roof. Who would feed, clothe and care for these 'guests', if one is already existing (as we are here) on 2/3ds of what is considered here in France, for a couple, the absolute minimum to live on....

I make these points with a heavy heart, as I am human and also moved regularly to tears by this crisis, but we are not helping by sticking plasters over a gaping and life-threatening wound to Europe. now I'll retire and duck.....

the whole drama in an image…

Brian, what a wonderful idea!!

In many media they started to discuss if it was good to publish this photo... Sure, it is appealing, like the one by Nick Ut of the girl in Vietnam. She at least survived. But it had changed the path.

And I just become a bit cynical: just wait till the refugees which are reaching the shores of a Greek island are going to sell their rubber dinghies on ebay for their “comrades” in Calais. What is Cameron going to do? Sending his Navy against dinghies full of refugees if they are crossing the channel?

By the way where is all the frozen money from Saddam H's Swiss accounts gone which was allegedly released by a UN resolution in 2003 to IOM / UNHCR? This had been over 80 million?

Sorry, but I just couldn't resist saying I had a picture in my mind's eye of two spies, but one of them Peter Sellers with dark glasses and the other Sean Connery with his strange accent looking for infiltrators.

I have spent the afternoon cleaning my caravan, which I am considering offering to the mairie. if it were accepted as not dangerous. It would not be fit for children up there next to the river, with no electricity but I'd gladly sort out a pump for the well. Cold in winter though as the water freezes. I lived there for three years with my hubby and 12 yr old though, so why not a refugee or two?It would be certainly better than Calais Jungle.

I do hope that there are enough people with more decent room to spare inside a house who can step up before me though, because we had to leave due to the basic conditions being so tough there and the lack of running water etc...

Hello Doreen. I can understand why you feel people who appear to be not starving and well-dressed and able to pay a smuggler to get them into Europe, might be trying to get here for a "good time".

It does, at first view, seem strange, and I have to be honest, when I hear the amount people are paying, I wish I had that myself to spend on starting a business.

However, when you think about it a bit deeper, why on earth would someone clearly well-fed, with obvious ability to get daily resources and small children, get on a seriously overcrowded boat/trai/lorry, illegally, to enter another continent, far from friends, family and clearly far from any chance of earning anything like enough to feed themselves and have several thousands left over for a smuggler?

The only possible reason to do that is that they are genuinely fleeing from a war, rape, torture, bombs, rockets, guns, threats, etc... It would be exactly what we would have to do in the same position.

Personally, like you, I am a migrant, not a refugee and although I technically could not return to the UK because I have no job and nowhere to live there, we both have the fortunate choice to enter the UK legally.

The truth is Brain, we can never be sure of who we are sleeping with.

Only a fool would accept all the migrants in the Calais camps are 'genuine' especially with the heightened terrorist activity in nearby Belgium et environs.

I would hope and expect undercover agents from France & the UK are also on site.

Part of the problem is that that is true but then a large part of the IS force in Syria is not Syrian to begin with, indeed we see a lot about people recruited in English cities as well as elsewhere. IS is as likely to do what al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas and other groups have done by implanting people who appear perfectly ordinary and respectable. IS/Daesh is now growing fast outside of the Syria area and has even begun to be troublesome in Saudi Arabia. As primitive and cruel their methods, they are a highly sophisticated force which makes them on the way to impossible to deal with conclusively. What is being discussed among people working in the aid and human rights sector which we believe the politicians are talking about too, is a very high risk that if any country tries and Iraq type invasion it will escalate, part of which will be attracting many more supporters and fighters.

On balance, it seems safer to accept refugees and keep close watch on what is going on among them. What is very striking though, is that comparatively few IS recruits have come out of refugee camps.The view held is that those people are mainly traumatised by what has happened to them and many half way know they will never see their homes again, perhaps their countries even. Therefore, taking people directly from camps may be a partial solution.

Great idea Laraine but what about the minority (that's all it takes) of IS members who have no doubt infiltrated these migrants ? I think this is one of the big fears of Mr Cameron hence his unwillingness to take mgrants 'willy nilly' without proper screening etc.

Do you honestly think 100% of these migrants are genuine ? I don't because I can't imagine IS would let such a wonderful opportunty pass them by...

I appreciate that my last paragraphs would make a teacher sigh....

But so be it.

The people will arrive at ports...ie Normandy ...Cherburge....St Malo etc Pas de Calais.

So the offered accom needs to be with in a few km from these areas where

people will land. So accom in the Massive central or Dordogne will not work as

the people would then need to be transported to the new region.

So specially chosen properties in these costal regions......donated properties...

Some funded by gov. .....

Others part funded by gov....UK/France.

From there supplies of clothes, food...whatever can be driven to the people...

taken by other transportation.

Then there needs to be a motivation to live....teaching skills would be brilliant...

People willing to spend a month or longer with the NEW ENTRANTS helping them with every aspect

of relocation, recovery of their health and lifting their spirits to the furture.

It will need people with time and devotion.

[ In the meantime all the mess back home in their own countries needs sorting....somehow...

someway].

people who can offer their relevant knowledge. Everything organised, planned and

approaved by a committee with its network of helpers.

A form of work can be asked of the NEW ENTRANTS.

Giving up your one gite rental in Loire for winter is not

something which will work!
These properties need to be large and fairly long term.

Survive France people????

I make no secret of my politics but I shall repeat that I have kept politics out of this deliberately and am being critical of media without naming them. To make the lives of people in need political when in fact their well being counts far more than anything else would be disgraceful exploitation. I do not and would not do that but where media is biassed for whatever reason, be it proprietors, editors or proximity to a political party or the government, then that is equally disgraceful.

UNHCR 2015 Middle East regional operations map

There are 3 million Syrian refugees in the region, 1.8 million Iraqi refugees, 4.95 million Palestinians and around half a million Dom who although they have been in the region for over 1000 years are not accepted as citizens by any nation. So, there alone are over 10 million people. The majority of countries do not have the resources or wealth to take them in, they are the 'wrong kind' of Islam for most of the Arabian Gulf states. Yemen has quarter of a million Somali refugees but the country is in a state of civil war with Saudi Arabian military supporting one side by providing air attack support, thus the entire 21 million population is now affected with roughly 350,000 internally displaced persons already. Just add Libya where there are approaching 150,000 people displaced as well. The UK has had a large part in two of the situations that have created this situation, but quite a large part of it has arisen in reaction to the Iraq war.

None of that is said as a political statement or with any bias, simply what is known and accepted. If people know the full story then wish to believe stories about people arriving in place X then calling the family on their mobile to get them to immediately join them then bully for them. That some of us say that that is irresponsible media generated information is quite reasonable or is it not?