Interesting hearing that. My OH says that lower end of range properties very often take far longer to sell than very expensive ones - but there are exceptions both ways. If an agent puts a lot of effort in to the lower end house they do not usually literally lose money but it may take a lot of hours of work, a bit of a phone bill and plenty of car fuel, so they say that. It is pure rhetoric in 99% of cases. As much effort appears to go into a cheap house as a vastly expensive château but agents like to keep up appearances. Agents do have flexibility. The agency commission is fixed but individual agents do negotiate to get sales through, it may cost them a few thousand but it is a sale when those are often far and few between. My OH had no experience and had to learn but keeps on learning. She has her contacts among builders, notaires, SPANC inspectors, DPE contractors and so on. If she does not like their work or they lose her trust they are finished, but by and large she has reliable support and spends time doing visits with them to get advice, quotes and whatever potential buyers and those who are in the process of or completing a sale need. She sometimes gets less commission than she might have because she has decided to help the buyer. In that she is not alone, others do similar, however it appears that there are two sides. The other is where they will do as close to nothing more than hold their hand out to be paid. The vendors and buyers simply do not know before they enter the relationship. That, and this is my observation only, is where the agencies let everybody including themselves down.
Some agencies have a flat rate policy, those who don't argue that a more expensive property stays on the market longer, requires more qualified staff, needs more vetting and more advertising. Some also claim that they actually lose money when they sell cheaper properties. I have trouble believing this however!
The fees are high Brian but whether the agent actually earns that fee is questionable.
I know we've done this before but when I was in the business our agency usually charged a fixed rate for a transaction and the rates were displayed on the front door as required by law at the time. The whole point is that the VAST majority of sales occupy about the same amount of the agent's time so a house sold for 50K € can use up the same amount of man-hours as a house next-door worth 250K €, there are exceptions of course but not many... The format for the agent & notaire etc is about the same so why aren't the agents fees the same ? Agents fees are a rip-off and the sooner their rates are more rigorously controlled the better for everyone.
It is an interesting set of thoughts. Lawyers as a body consider it unethical to represent family, indeed legal associations tend to discourage it, for friends is another matter unless there is some kind of close relationship like both being directors or trustees of a company, charity or whatever. Because what I do professionally is in a rights field I naturally have a lot to do with lawyers, in the UK nearly all barristers which most legal academics are and in other countries similar. However, after several disagreements with my solicitor of old, we got to know each other well so that when I sold my house to somebody who then tried to screw me for some of the money by making a number of claims about the property through his lawyer, mine simply shut them up by finding out that the solicitor making the noises was the buyer's brother-in-law and used that to challenge the legal challenge.
The couple of French lawyers I know, indeed the top academic one in my own work field, are very similar. Ethics are important to many of them, for those they are not, the word scruples seems to have been abolished.
Quite agree David. Most agencies are looking to feather their own nests, the customer often comes second...
You can have any clause you wish added to a Compromis but getting a potential buyer to agree to it is a different matter.
It's normal to have a time limit depending on the circumstances.
That would only happen if they were incompetent and then, of course, you wouldn’t use them. I’ve only ever used friends from my schooldays for my legal work. They are competent and have a vested interest in looking after you. Their junior partners do the grunt work of course but if they know you are a personal friend of their boss’s family then they make an extra effort. In France, I must admit, the opposit happened, my Notaire has become a friend which is also great because once again I know he’ll make an extra effort not to let me down. I’m a great believer in personal relationships with competent people.
All quite true. My OH has a 'colleague' who was an agent in the UK and applies those practices/values here, usually with unsuspecting buyers. When she gets those same people they cannot understand why they suddenly have somebody who is willing to listen to them, do the enquiries and set things up that they need. For instance, somebody quite recently discussed setting up a phone/internet account after he had said that they just have to go to a phone shop, she conversely said that as the sale is completed and a little after she would do that with them and since these were people with only weak French that she would help if they needed. The problem is that that agent swans about full of confidence so does not appear a chump, quite the opposite although he thrives on doing minimal anything. On that agencies 'league' of sales he is not doing too badly but at the same time seems not to be selling to French buyers, or indeed anybody much other than Brits. So perhaps the fees are high but when good service is given the agents earn it, then again some are also willing to negotiate the fees down too. It is all there, sadly too much wool appears to be pulled over eyes all round.
One of my near neighbours has their house for sale. I sometimes act as a key holder and open up the house for viewings. They are with two agencies. If I were to sell my house I know which one I would choose as one, the less ‘local’ office, brings a constant stream of viewers and actively tries to sell the property whilst onsite. The others put in a brief appearance and just let the viewers look around. The difference in the way these two agencies go about trying to sell the property is an eye opener. Apart from word of mouth is there any other way to compare the success rate of local agencies?
That's assuming you have agents that are on the ball, give instant feedback to their clients, and remain totally upfront with both parties at all times rather than keep certain things 'in the dark' in case a problem, eg, 'pans out'....We've dealt with some right chumps/agencies that at first sight seemed to have the experience and qualifications to be good, but reveal themselves to be good at the talk but not the walk, and sometimes treat both parties as children when actually behaving as such themselves.
As we all know, agency fees here in France are still eye-wateringly high, so I'm afraid we do expect them to actually earn that commission, although we've had some still expect us to do their research on certain matters we feel is their remit. I don't believe all agencies protect client interests, that's for sure...
Thanks John! That works for me. Ask for Don Corleone when you get there. :-)
I'm afraid I agree with Marie-Claire, whereby the seller has to be protected not to have his main asset tied up away from other potential purchasers for months, only to find he loses the original purchaser and the deposit down the line...We've always been required to pay a 10% cash deposit up-front into the Notaire's office, and equally we've always insisted a 10% deposit is lodged for us like-wise (with one exception, whereby the Notaire asked could they put in 5%, as he knew the family well and a clause would ensure that should the completion fail we'd receive the full 10%)....
So, to verify, we CAN have a clause inserted re a mortgage purchase, that the deposit layed down would be forfeited to us should the buyer fail to complete? Is it also feasible to insert a clause to specify that the whole process could not drag on for more than, eg 6 months...I ask because we were once kept 11 months on a sale, because the bank involved in the loan here totally dragged their heels, and we then sussed the buyer also wanted to call it a day after 10 months but would lose his deposit. After attempts to make life hell for 4 weeks for us the Notaire butched up and forced through the sale.
One of the reasons agents are a safer bet is because people who go out looking alone occasionally get themselves into several negotiations with vendors, they avoid going as far as going to a notaire until they have everything their way and a 'short list'. Some of them do not give up then. They are known to push unrealistic negotiations on the back of a DPE that demands considerable work (and expense) for the vendor but because of which they believe the price should be dropped. When I hear such tales I simply wonder why anybody goes down the route of selling themselves with all the pitfalls, although knowing that many leboncoin sales tend to be quite local see that that can be quite different for obvious reasons. Too many people, pushy ones from big cities and foreigners who are used to aggressive 'horse trading' often appear capable of all manner of things I would never tolerate. Watching (well, hearing) from the sidelines I am still occasionally surprised by the inventiveness of people who are out to get one over others, especially in the house buying business.
You never know, just one of those 'timewasters' may be serious.....
And I would say the exact opposite! Taking a friend or family member as a solicitor would be the best way to lose a friend and/or start a family feud in my opinion.
One of the challenges of selling a piece of property is that you can't be sure if the buyers do actually have what it takes to buy it and, no, you can't ascertain it. The flat we have now was actually "purchased" twice before we bought it, but the "buyers" didn't get a mortgage, which is why the owners decided on the clause. The owners were judges, so I'm sure if there were any way to make sure of the buyers' bona fide, they would know it!
We've viewed many locations to choose where to search definitively, but your assumption we actually viewed 'numerous' properties internally as well as externally, for each purchase, is incorrect, tho' as we've bought and sold several here then obviously we've probably seen inside more, per se, that other purchasers...
....we don't view a property inside until we have an agreement on one we're selling, or that the property is empty and we're disturbing no-one 'on speculation'. Because here agencies try to keep the location of their clients houses 'up their sleeves' it's more difficult than in UK to keep to that policy, but not impossible. At one time a few years ago there were many time-waster viewings, in our experience, but perhaps with the economic climate as it is now, that 'pastime' isn't necessarily the case.
Have you ever seen this clause actually used ?
It's against everything the suspensive clauses stand for surely ? The idea is to give the buyer as much security in trying to buy the property as possible. What's the point of punishing someone because a loan is refused ? I can't imagine any notaire agreeing to such a clause !
Notaires have a right to earn a living but they also have to earn their living honestly like the reset of us...
Peter, I was referring to another clause which is not usually in a "compromis" as it stipulates that if the buyer DOESN'T get the mortgage, he forfeits the deposit, not the other way round as it usually is.
Deposits are obligatory, the amount of the deposit is usually 10%, but that can vary.
Notaires are tax collectors who have to make a living on top of everything they do for the State. Obviously, they often feel strongly about their fees.
I would be very wary of ‘vetting’ potential buyers, you need as many views as possible. You have stated before that you visited numerous properties before finding your ideal location, other buyers need the same opportunity. It is easy for some buyers to prove that they have sufficient available funds but it doesn’t make them any more serious than other viewers.