So what is a renovation?

I am talking more about configuration than interior decoration.

Like I said before and on the other thread, if you read French design and renovation magazines and watch programmes on French telly, talk to architects and French estate agents and young/middle age people there is a distinct trend in what French buyers expect from a property. Large ‘piece a vivre’ (very very important), an open modern kitchen, a bedroom on the ground floor, large parental bedroom, dressing, dressing, dressing. Ensuite where possible for most bedrooms etc. A sustainable heating system !!!

It is very difficult to achieve that in older houses without knocking down load bearing walls.

That is renovation.

Keeping it as a museum will affect its saleability. 10 mins on Greenacres and you will see the point I am trying to make. Nicely renovated unsellable houses with blue shutters. If selling is not important, then that is fine.

Mark Alsop … Most folk I know do not think of reselling…we soon noticed that it can take years and years to sell (if at all)…folk find what they want and stick with it.
and, in my experience… France does NOT have the same ethos of Individuals buying/doing-up/selling to move up the Property Ladder as can be seen in UK…

Property remains within the family… deeply engrained on the French psyche… yes, lots remain empty… until, finally one of the generations comes along and has a go. That is to live in… not to sell… and each makes the choice of how to go about things and what sort of property is wanted in the end…

There is no all-encompassing description of the ideal home…:wink:

That is a forum myth. Amongst others.

Please, why do you think it’s important to have an answer for everything? I’m talking from experience. The rooms in mist ‘older’ properties are very spacious and there is no need to remove load bearing walls. I’m sure your house is lovely. So is mine. I know what I am talking about, you are a faceless person on a forum. I accept your choice, I don’t accept your view of my choices. Goodbye.

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Hi Mark… You’ve got me pegged all wrong…

I have been in France for many, many years and only joined this Forum last year… (when I saw so many questions I felt I could help answer)…

My replies and info come from my own observations and my personal involvement in French everyday life…as I say, over a long, long period…plus advice and info also gleaned from my French neighbours and French friends. Oh yes, nowadays I also have some non-French neighbours and friends… all nationalities… and none of them are trying/hoping to move up the ladder either… :wink:.

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Not everybody follows trends.

Yes, that is a renovation, I don’t think anyone disagrees.
Yes, a restoration is likely to be a lot harder to sell than a renovation. But if you don’t plan on selling it, how is that at all relevant? You still seem convinced that saleability is a priority for everyone - but it isn’t. I have no intention of selling my house, I don’t know how long the Lord will keep on sparing me but probably not that many, and I don’t have any kids to leave it to, so why would I be remotely interested in the resale value or how easy it will be to sell? That will be the commune’s problem. In the meanwhile, I’ll keep enjoying its period charm and carry on pondering what to do about the front door. After 10 years I can still sit in the living room looking at the massive fireplace and the exposed beams and the wonky corners and everything, and it’s all so cute it makes me grin like a eejit at nobody, and go all warm and tingly inside. I’ve lived in trendy flats in the past and they didn’t have that effect on me at all.

Said it before and shan’t say it again, but surely the important thing is to know the difference between the two. If you want to end up with an easy to sell property that looks like something from the pages of last month’s glossy magazines, do a renovation. If you want a long-term project that will be unique, that you can take pride in, parping over the details to your heart’s content and getting immeasurable personal pleasure and satisfaction out of, knowing full well but not caring two hoots that some people won’t understand and will think you’re a fool for doing it, do a restoration.

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Not at all.

I have been here since my mid twenties and I moved here over twenty years ago. Still learning LOl

Mark… Hein… from your mid-twenties…and still learning…very glad …

You’ve got a lot of life left ahead of you (as do we all, hopefully)… so you’ve lots of learning yet to do…enjoy…:grinning:

I suppose everyone aims for the house that suits them and the configuration of their family - it is perfectly possible to organise your house the way you like it, even if it is ancient - I don’t suppose that, were I to put my house on the market, I’d have many takers, because it is geared fairly specifically to our needs and our taste. I didn’t think about selling it when I did it up, I thought about what suits us as a family.

People do want space, we are no different, my main salon is 60+m2, the kitchen is the same size, the dining room is a bit more than half that size, there are various other rooms eg for music, watching television, and we can sleep 20 properly if need be though I prefer not to for long stretches because we have only 6 bathrooms. So not stupidly huge but spacious enough for us and the friends who come to see us.
But because it is very much our house and has my family’s personality all over it, someone else would probably hate it. So what. They can have their own house, I’m happy with mine.

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Your definitely French.:slight_smile:

Renovation…excellent to have everyone supporting the project…

Also a fascinating video showing the work in progress

As an architect with a reasonable size practice inthe UK that was most active in the 1980s and 1990s I can say that about half our work was to do with existing buildings, many of them in Conservation Areas or listed buildings including several Grade I buildings, Practically always there were serious planning constraints and long negotiations with clients, the authorities and of course adjoining owners, near neighbours, amenity societies and especially in London the large estates like Grosvenor, Cadogan, Portland and The Crown. The word most people used in those days was in fact refurbishment, not a very elegant word. In the early 70s the public mood was very anti modernist after the quite apalling mistakes of the 50s and 70s. Often refurbishment was very radical, more radical than would be allowed now. Facades were frequently retained for planning reasons and everything further than two metres back was demolished. In an original building of say nine storeys you could reduce the floor to ceiling heights and end up with two more floors without going higher. Then if the building had only one basement you could excavate two more basements for plant, kitches and swimming pools in say a hotel. The style of the interiors was pretty conservative with the expectation usually being plenty of elaborate skirtings, architraves and cornices and so on. Kitchens and bathrooms became much more modern though and nothing like the sale now. We were always taught to be respectful of the local architecture in terms of detail and materials as a direct revolt gainst the earlier brutalism. Later on after the post modernist phase, which I rather enjoyed, the public and especially the planners became very radical and objected to what they said was pastiche and their preferences were for very modernistic interventions. The more radical the better and usually their thoughts had no grasp of financial viabilty. Owners of buildings no longer had the right to determine what happened to their buildings; they were simply life time guardians of what amounted to be public property. It has been said that Planning is Politics. Politicians will change their opinions simply on the basis of politics. You can have a good negotiation with planners and councillors, do all the detailed design work and then at the very last minute another political reason intervenes which renders all your previous work redundant. The client is then fed up and decides to change architect to introduce fresh air. Thousands of schemes are wasted every year. Renovation, Modernisation, Change of use, Refurbishment, Gentrification, Remodelling, Upgrading I have seen them all! One good thing about the sort of projects that we did was that virtually every one we did was different to the last, even in the same street One example being that we worked of five different listed buildings in Holland Park, for different clients and each building was in some way differnt as well. Of course differing clinets made it interesting as well; I shall remain silent on some of my expeiences on this site but could write a book on the subject. Oh and on UPVC windows I used them only once on a project in 50 years in the profession!

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This is France not the UK.

Have you been to the UK recently ? LOL.

I have only one relative left in the UK and they live in leafy expensive Sussex. What a mess they are making of their renovations, refurbishments, restoration. It is a disaster.

Expats who move to France can’t even paint properly !! Seriously. They can’t paint. Judging by the houses I have seen in the UK I can understand why. Dare I say it, British expats should keep their hands away from French houses. They have no idea what they are doing.

Like I said before, it is the ‘expat snob’ effect…and they are completely missing the point.

Interesting to read of your experiences David… would love to see some of your projects… :grinning:

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Hi Stella Here is one project we did in the late 80s. We were recommended by English Heritage . Two listed buildings opposite Kensington Palace were fire damaged and run down. We negotaited the consents which included facade retention, excavation of three basements including pool, kitchen etc, new steel framed building behind but retention of the best features, creation of new 5 star hotel mainly air conditioned behind. It’s changed hands since, like most hotels, but is essentially the project we designed. It’s rather expensive! https://www.milestonehotel.com We did a huge variety of jobs from very expensive private houses for well known people, new residential developments for many of the best known developers like Berkeley Homes, St George, Taylor Woodrow etc, hotels, pubs, restaurants, audio visual facilities, offices, photo studios, a cricket pavilon, motor trade places, racing stables (one Derby winner!), factories, clubs, industrial design (disco consoles!), shops, a shooting school, hundreds of house alterations, a major refurb of a chateau in France with an extension and landscaping, chalet extension in Switzerland et etc etc. We won a competion in Bath and awards in Wandsworth, Lambeth, Richmond and Kingston. We worked with many well known interior designers, landscape designers, engineers etc. One particular job we did for a member of the Royal Family (a new house) was won after a limited competition and involved a completely new four storey house with a stack of wonderful individually designed joinery using timber hand chosen in the Royal Forest at Windsor. We worked on alteraions to lots of buildings designed by famous architects like Lutyens, John Wood, Norman Shaw, Sir Ernest George. You can find other buildings we did here http://cdn.overstreet.co.uk/images/Property/large/4/2015/2/23/orlando-road-clapham-london-sw4-000004241_85527L_IMG_05.jpg and here https://www.google.fr/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjoy-WrgYTUAhXDDxoKHdNxDXkQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.primelocation.com%2Fto-rent%2Fproperty%2Flondon%2Fst-edmunds-terrace%2F&psig=AFQjCNFhB2IB8bV5bCPaJk9oERw1ORq6hw&ust=1495559967929330
They are respectively an award winning mews development in Clapham Old Town and a new development of flats and houses near Regent’s Park Sorry I could go on for yonks

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Mark…

Quite possibly, you do not realise that some of your remarks are causing offence…

This thread is about Renovation and should not be used to denigrate others…

If you have some genuinely helpful and/or interesting information or anecdotes, please share them with us… if not, please restrain yourself…

Thanks…

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Mark, can you tone it down a notch please?

I don’t go back that much but keep in touch with a few of my old contacts, those who haven’t yet died that is! I do have sons in Kent and Oxfordshire though (neither is an architect!). When I started work most people who had work done tended to be quite well educated and rich and to be honest we usually worked at the top end of the market. Most clients came to us to get advice and we did jobs in a very traditional way, writing specifications, getting competitive tenders and then appointing good contractors, hopefully ones we knew from before. As time went on competition started arriving and the projects were often split up into small chunks with little overall control, like design and build, promoted by Thatcher and Latham. Before that we even employed professional contruction managers who frequently visited sites to make sure work was being done properly. One of aour architects used to vist each site at least once a week. Then people started cutting corners, often with disastrous results. Younger clients started arriving with bags full of cut outs from magazines saying they wanted it like this or like that- even if it was impossible. The role of the architect was being chipped away. Occasionally you would find a client who wanted a proper job but they were in the minority. Another problem was that architect graduatsees arrived to work knowing how to operate a computer programme but having no idea about materials or detailing and often not having face to face skills, leaving me to sweep up on numerous occasions. The the TV programmes started and everybody became an instant expert save that they were not! I would say that fee levels are now about half what they were and you are expected to produce more drawings and paperwork for it. It is not a well paid profession now at all. In the 80s it was for those that ran practices like me with 38 staff. As for painting I have actually done quite a lot of that on my own homes over the years; painting is only half the job the other half being preparation. I still do a bit and I draw and paint in an art class every week. I quite enjoy it!

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most Brit house refurbs in Brittany major on Brico Depot!

Message du 22/05/17 16:55
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MCA Mark Alsop

May 22

This is France not the UK.
Have you been to the UK recently ? LOL.
I have only one relative left in the UK and they live in leafy expensive Sussex. What a mess they are making of their renovations, refurbishments, restoration. It is a disaster.
Expats who move to France can’t even paint properly !! Seriously. They can’t paint. Judging by the houses I have seen in the UK I can understand why. Dare I say it, British expats should keep their hands away from French houses. They have no idea what they are doing.
David_Rosemont:
Oh and on UPVC windows I used them only once on a project in 50 years in the profession!

Like I said before, it is the ‘expat snob’ effect…and they are completely missing the point.

Visit Topic or reply to this email to respond.

In Reply To

David Rosemont

May 22

As an architect with a reasonable size practice inthe UK that was most active in the 1980s and 1990s I can say that about half our work was to do with existing buildings, many of them in Conservation Areas or listed buildings including several Grade I buildings, Practically always there were serious…

If you read the ‘paint’ thread on this forum it could possibly cause offence to French people. I read it. French paint is rubbish !!! Is it ??? Like nothing is painted properly in France ???

Then you have the ‘why don’t they put up a UK flag in my village’ type thread !! Is it important ? Why should they ??

Then you have ’ I have only used UPVC windows in fifty years’ type comment. Imagine you are a French couple/family installing (like most) PVC windows in your dream historical house and then read this thread.

I can see both sides to the debate. But I think people are being a bit pompous to be fair.

We need Veronique for her opinions.