Taxes Foncieres.....Gulp!

Norman....the point of this website is that we can have a frank exchange of views....not all of them happy clappy....good Lord...in the UK I am sure we all complained...that included many of my friends (Im a nurse so many of my friends are from other shores) and they too complained...it would never have been a response I would have considered to tell them to go back from whence they came! its idiotic to suggest that only the locals can complain...and totally unrealistic. Ive been a member of this site since it started up and its a good medium to discuss things here that we may not choose to do around the dinner table.....and can I reiterate...we absolutely have tried to do everything about the problem we have...we have tried to get our taxes reduced: we have put our house on the market: Dont you consider it may be helpful for people asking about the situation here to hear both sides? or maybe you think people should all be lulled into believing we are living in Shangrila here? I would rather discuss our conditions here than moan to our local French friends and neighbours...many of whom incidentally are totally peed off with the new President...and several of them have started looking at moving to the UK!

Sarah that is not true. What on earth is the happy brigade.

I address my complaints directly to the offenders who caused me a problem.

That is the place for them.

Carol, have a little think for a moment. How would you react if a French person living in UK complained in a similar vein?

I rather suggest you would be the same. You make the point that the 'same old comment' comes back to you i.e. 'if you don't like it - leave'. So why are you surprised?

Many have suggested here that you should try and do something about the problem, and not just complain, and that sounds sensible to me. To repeat, your post was a direct comparison with a litany of wonders you left behind, and the apparent comparative misery here, hence my reaction at least.

Having been an expat in many countries I have always regarded myself as a Guest in their houses, and have found that a good philosophy to follow.

Keep the faith.

Carol, you must know by now that the standard response from the happy brigade to anyone who dares to complain about France is to 'go back'. You are not allowed to complain, if you do then you are obviously not suited for life in France, unlike the happy brigade who frolic through their local streets singing and dancing and finding not a thing wrong.

Just ignore them, they are numerous and as predictable as they are numerous, and you find them on any expat forum, not just French. *yawn*

Yes Carol you possibly did get a lot more in the UK....

seems to be different for other people....sometimes.

Does your rental do ok on the coast?

Maybe you are missing working....

No not everyone can go back to England because Uk is too

busy giving out cash to new entrants.

Why on earth would so many people leave UK is everthing with so

comfy cosy?

I have said so many times that we are all different .

John and Vicki....I guess no one would complain if they were paying a third of their previous council tax and had a whole lot more to enjoy as you point out is your situation. My point was I got a whole lot more in the UK (in fact here we get nothing) and pay a huge amount more. I think if there is a problem or a reason to complain, its reasonable to complain....or are you suggesting that Brits are not allowed to complain? This constant comment is a little tired...if you dont like it go back......a. thats not always possible and b. complaining about problems is a lot more use than sitting quietly and doing nothing...!

my comment may have come over as having a 'pop' at France...but the figures are correct. We were originally told by our estate agent here that one of the housing taxes was related to the number living in the property....which doesnt seem to be the case. Also the owners of the property were at a distance when we bought and for some reason we didnt get to see the taxable amounts for the property...hands up our fault...but we hadnt expected to be paying more here than in the Royal county of Berkshire!

We have a falling down Pigonniere which we are charged for (uninhabitable except by wildlife) which they count as a property despite our request that they come and inspect it, to date they ignore us and continue to assume its lived in. My husband is over 65 now....and at the moment our only income is from his pension. As far as having the choice to leave...thanks...hadnt thought of that...oh hang on...yes I have...the house has been on the market for coming up to 20 months. Has been reduced to below what we paid for it....despite spending a small fortune on it. So guess we dont really have the choice! So if I come across as having a pop...maybe I am....but guess I have a reason to.

Just opened mine too - shock horror! I believe you have to be over 70 to have a reduction. Re your apartment, I think you have to prove that it couldn't be lived in - France seems to have varying standards as what is deemed to be habitable! We've still the taxes d'habitation to look forward to, to cheer you up.

Perhaps someone might find these guides useful.

http://www.connexionfrance.com/expatriate-information-sheets.php

This is the link which explains all the rebates

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/F3171.xhtml

and includes the one for unoccupied buildings.

Good morning everyone.

We all know how tough it is now and that we have to look at each bill carefuly before

we pay it.

I was warned time and time again about the high taxes Fronciere etc....but we have a

beautiful big house and a peice of hyde park ....plus the fruits. Many of you know that we conduct a small

buisness from this property.

Now in London we had a shop...small...and our home was in another part of the city.

The rates on the shop were 12.000 pounds per annum and the refuse collection was

payable seperatly.The more we paid for refuse collection the better it should have been

the health and safety aspect of our deli....but sadly our neigbours had different ideas

to us.Keeping the area and shop clean was not on their list of duties.
Infact people would report sightings of rats running around the rear of a really

well know supermarket chain.

The drains were in serious trouble and our whole parade of shops had flooding

on more than one occassion.I remember having so many problems which were

almost impossible to solve.

I think that all these adversaties which I faced whilst trying to make a

living plus my very infortunate experiences with the NHS ....showed me

that my addiction to London was over.

The mighty collection of problems cascaded and then I knew....

So my picture is so different to Carol's.

I see France as my home because it offers me the opportunity to live.

I am still getting to realise this.

The French punctuate work, rest and play to perfection.

But we must all learn to accept that every day life dealing with taxes, banks

and goverments will be not be without blemishes.

The most important factor is to stay positive and to enjoy what you have.

.Like some of you I have problems with tax, banks, groing older,

getting poorer.

But I had all this back in Merry England.

So here we are trying to help each other with reality and knowledge.

Stay positive.

Looking for advice is fine and surely this is what this site is all about? But having a pop at France generally (sorry Carol that's how your post comes across to me) is a different matter.

If as it appears, you are unhappy here in France, then surely you have the option to go elsewhere? If costs are your main complaint, well I can't see that changing much with the new Socialist government. I know of some seriously good buys in properties in places like Hungary, Roumania, Lithuania and even Poland, which are also EU countries, and despite some propaganda to the contrary are quite civilised places.

Brian's question was totally fair and valid. As have been most of the replies, so all I would add is that France generally does seem far more supportive of the older generation than most other countries, and I have never received anything other than courtesy and help here, and I am coming up 73. However at the moment the new government seems only interested in finding new or updated ways of finding tax revenues, so many things are in flux.

For others It is no bad thing to see the Social Services people to find out what current rules are, but be prepared for a lot of 'not sure's' as even they don't know what is about to happen. I do know that second-homes are being targeted all round - for the French as well as expats, but I think to expect more targeting to take place is reasonable.

I was interested in the 'view' being taken into account, as I heard that particular wonder emanated from the UK Council Tax ratings? How do you rate a view? We have probably some 60kms of aerial view across the Lot and Correze? Who sets the value? By distance? Quality of view? Do forests count more than farmlands, hill more or less than mountains? Which department assesses the value? Even I find that weird, assuming it applies.

But as ever, if you are deeply unhappy then move,life's too short to be miserable anywhere. If you can't move (and I have never seen that argument) then bite the bullet, and complain around the dinner table, but going public will only get this sort of response, I fear.

I agree Valerie. I think people are just trying to be helpful by being honest. It is nothing to do with complaining or wanting to "go home". My rates were much lower in Croydon than they are here in the Mayenne and, of course I had my rubbish collected, which I do not get here. Nor do we have a made up road. But we have a lovely house, lovely neighbours (only one couple) and a nice life. I tried for a rebate because I was shocked at the cost, but unfortunately we did not get anywhere with it. However, we just get on with it - why not? Nothing else you can do! France was always considered an expensive country to live, in comparison with, say, Spain, and we all knew that when we came. But in these rather difficult days it is worth trying to save a little if you can and those on a low income can receive rebates.

June, if you make a tax return to the French tax authorities, the Hôtel des Impôts, and are within the income limit, the year after you are 65, you should receive your 100 euros TF rebate and I believe will be exempted from the Taxes d'Habitation and Television licence too. The French tax system is joined up,… well, I know locally it is here in the North of France, so the rebates and exemptions should happen automatically for you, triggered by your tax return. (You don't have to be 65 to get the Taxes d'Habitation and Television licence exemption, just fall within the income limit.)

I also believe you would qualify for the complimentary medicine under the CPAM, which will also entitle you to a reduction in your electricity and gas bills under the social tariffs, but you have to apply for these I think at your local CPAM. It all again depends on whether you fall below the income level set by the government.

This may help http://www.pap.fr/argent/impots/la-taxe-fonciere/taxe-fonciere-les-exonerations-et-degrevements-a1975 (Dégrèvement = rebate)

There's a box at the bottom of the page which says this is a very complicated subject! It also gives advice on how to get advice and where to find the income limit below which you get a rebate which changes every year, of course.

June, I have just been looking at the back of my Taxes Foncières statement. It seems that if you over 75 and your income does not exceed the limit as defined in l'article 1417-1 du CGI (Whatever that is?), you are exempt, though this exemption seems to be dependent on who else lives in the same household and their level of income, (at least, I think that's what it is saying!). If you are between 65-75 and if it is your principal residence and your income falls within this limit, then you are entitled to a rebate of 100 euros on your TF, (again, you need to check my understanding of this). I am assuming that these rebates and exemptions are applied universally throughout France. It might be worth trying to find out what this limit is. These rebates and exemptions come into play in the tax year beginning 1st January after you have reached the age of 65.

I believe if your income falls below this limit, then you will also automatically qualify for exemption of your Taxes d'Habitation and the television licence. The Hôtel des Impôts should automatically apply these for you. You might also be eligible for the complimentary medicine system from the CPAM, though I do not know how this actually works.

I am afraid, though, you guys are going to hate me! My local Maire, who is one of the good guys, has a policy of not raising the Commune portion of the TF. Once again, it did not rise. He has no control over the Inter-communalité and the Départment portions. My TF went up 16 euros this year. I might add that I do not live on a main road, but last Winter after the first night of snow, the snow plough was around first thing the following morning.

Unlike where I lived in London, without children, the only thing I ever felt I was paying for with my rates were the potholes in the roads and pavements. My then local Council refused to refund me the money I spent every year on telephone calls to get them to come and empty my dustbins. At least, over here, I feel that I get real value from my local Mairie!

Sorry if I am repeating bits of other people's replies. They posted while I was writing mine!

In terms of rebates, you need to make sure that you aren't reading "entitled" anywhere as apparently there is no such thing. In fact, you are entitled to APPLY for a rebate, with no guarantee that they will favour you with one.

I went back and re-read Brian's discussion post and it doesn't come across as though he is complaining at all. He is voicing a genuine concern and asking others what courses of action might be open to him. I too am very worried what my tax liability will be. Having only arrived in February I don't know quite what to expect and have learned to take what my vendor told me with a large pinch of salt. France is now my home and I have nowhere to 'go back home' to so am extremely interested in the very helpful advice that's being offered here.

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If you have low earnings you can go to 'Impot' and ask for a form 'Demande de remise ou demande de delais de paiements' It is a simple form to fill in and asks your incomings and basic outgoings, such as electricity etc, if you qualify they will knock off 200 euros and/or you can pay monthly, you can do a similar thing with tv licence!

If you are over 65 and have a 'modest income' (ie your 2011 tax return showed an income of less than 10 024 euros plus 2 676 for each half part) then you are entitled to a €100 dégrèvement. If you have a new dwelling or have built an extension you can claim a total exoneration for 2 years (form H1). You can get your tax plafonné if you earn under €23 572 ... but just where they put the ceiling is unclear.

Total exoneration also for people with an 'allocation solidarité personnes âgées' or allocation adult handicapé.

Best thing is to go and ask the tax people: try and get past the guard dogs at the door and speak to someone who knows the law somewhere in a back room.