Patrick - can you give me any specific examples of the ‘poorly designed political union’ and how that has specifically affected you in your day to day life?
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You will find, if you read what I have already written, that I have given at least three examples of the poor design of the union’s governing bodies and practices.
Badgering people for specifics of how it affects their daily lives is a well recognised intimidatory tactic - but I will respond with just one example. I happen to enjoy building and sailing small boats for my own pleasure. I have done this many times in the last 40 years. It’s quite an expensive and time consuming way of getting the exact boat that you want, perhaps for growing children or for the family to enjoy, so when I have completed a boat and used it for a year or two I sell it in order to recoup just enough cash to buy the plans and materials for another. However, I am no longer allowed to do this legally. Under an EU Directive, aggressively and persistently lobbied for, mainly by the French yachtbuilding industry, it is illegal for me to sell my home built craft within 5 years unless I comply with a long certification procedure specifically designed to deter small-scale and one-off builders. Effectively I am limited to building one boat in 5 years.
This is a stupid and unnecessary rule with no purpose other than to benefit large scale industrial boat producers. It is dressed up in all kinds of health and safety jargon, but people have been building and sailing their own boats for hundreds of years - Joshua Slocum and Sir Robin Knox-Johnson, for example. The interests of the enthusiast and the small scale builder have been subordinated to the demands of the industrial powers. The irony is that many of these companies now produce the kind of small boats I, and thousands of other amateur builders all over Europe, might otherwise build ourselves, outsdide of the EU where they can get cheaper labour.
You asked for a specific example. Is that specific enough?
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It absolutely is Patrick! Sounds a bit…‘niche’ but nonetheless valid for you. Thanks very much and well done! It’s the first ever ‘example’ I’ve seen put forward.
By the way - it wasn’t my intention to ‘badger’ or ‘intimidate’ (bit agressive of you Patrick!) - I am simply asking for examples of how the EU adversely affects individuals on a daily basis. Not major brain surgery surely… apologies if it touched a nerve.
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Personally I would have thought that five years was OK. I have been sailing all my life and even in my days of competitive dinghy racing never changed boats that often. My current boat has been mine for 10 years and I have no intention to change it. The leave vote was all about weighing up the positives against the negatives of EU membership and although there are negatives, in my considered opinion, the positives outweigh them by at least ten to one. As I wrote in my last post, I hope that the consequences of Brexit don’t come back and bite you, as a non EU Citizen resident in a European country, too hard. A poor decision for those of us living here and a disastrous one for my children all busy in their professional lives in London who have had their options cut to the bone.
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Here, here James.
Obviously I, too, hope the consequences of Brexit will not “bite” me, or any of us expatriates, too hard.
I was working in France in the 1970s, and my older brother was employed in Germany in the 60s and in France in the 70s. Our father travelled all over the world finding markets for his company’s products in the Americas, Africa, Australasia, the Far East,and behind the Iron Curtain, so I know well that opportunities for work, travel and study and trade in foreign countries are not dependent on the existence of a European superstate. I hope your children will find that they will be able to take up any opportunity in any country if they have the desire and the talent.
For me it’s the building of boats which is as much the hobby as sailing them nowadays. I’m planning a new skin-on-frame lightweight rowing boat for use as a recreational and exercise tool. Have to do it soon while I still have a large garage to work in, and preferably before the EU limit the power of my electrical tools so that they work less efficiently - as they have done with kettles and vacuum cleaners. They should have limited the size, not the power of kettles if they wanted to prevent excessive waste of energy, but nobody told them the water would take longer to boil and that more waste heat would be radiated if the kettles remained the same size but lower powered. That’s a consequence of EU interference that will affect every one of us in our daily lives.
I see that Guy Verhofstadt is today calling for the sort of reform of the EU structure that I have long thought necessary. Perhaps it will happen, and perhaps Brexit will have concentrated minds enough to bring it about. Let’s all hope so.
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To be fair, if in fact you don’t build the boats for your own use but in effect for other people to use, I would actually find it a bit horrifying if anyone could do this with no certification and no checks. Obviously you take pride in what you create but if any Joe Bloggs could make boats and sell them with no checks, what’s to stop unscruplous folks setting up shoddy boat building businesses as a way to make money, à la Brittany Ferries Builders model. Don’t get me wrong I’m no great fan of 'elf and safety, I spend too long filling in forms that AFAICS have no point whatsoever, but I do agree that anything offered for sale commercially that has safety implications - cars, boats, electrical equipment, whatever - should be regulated to protect the consumer. It wouldn’t affect amateur boat-builders who build a boat for their own long-term use.
A bit like building insurance in France - you can build a house for yourself without insurance and live in it and there is no issue, but if you sell it during 10 years then it does become an issue.
Not wishing to be argumentative but just pointing out that sometimes there are two sides to the coin. Everyone complains about regulations when they feel that it’s stopping them doing what they want, but then you have to look at the potential consequences if those regulations didn’t exist because what would happen if EVERYONE including the Arthur Daleys and BF Builders could do whatever they wanted.
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No amateur or part-time boatbuilder would expect nor could hope to make a profit. I certainly only ever build the boat I want at the time, and have never even recovered the cost of materials, fittings, sails, etc. when I have sold in order to help finance another build. I always use the boats I build until I want something different. This usually means I own several boats at once.
As for shoddy boats, I can assure you there are a great number of unseaworthy craft floating, or sometimes sinking, in European marinas and harbours complete with their EU approval certificates, that I would not dream of going out to sea in. Fortunately most of their owners feel the same, so they never leave harbour.
The result of this particular regulation has not been better boats - just more profits for bigger firms, a loss of business and consequential loss of jobs in smaller firms, and frustration for hobby builders and sailors.
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That’s a bit rich David, describing it as “the thought processes”… I would suggest there’s a distinct lack of thought process involved. Do turkeys think about voting for Christmas? There’s a bonehead knuckle-scraping tendency sweeping all before it in the UK, even among some ex-pats I know in France. This is the greatest act of self-harm I have ever witnessed from a supposed sophisticated developed country. The UK is acting as if it was Zimbabwe headed by that other notorious self-harmer Robert Mugabe!
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I understand that the UK is the second highest net contributor only behind Germany in terms of cost of membership.
The unelected elite in the EU see fit to sponsor the lesser developed European countries with subsidies whilst allowing poverty to continue at home. The freedom of movement brings everybody down to a lower level rather than improving things. More unemployment also increases at home by allowing companies to relocate for cheaper labour.
In my humble opinion it is the EU that is in danger of crumbling rather that the UK looking for a longer term stability without carrying the weight of Europe on its shoulders.
The vote was carried to leave. Unlike other countries who were forced to repeat referenda until the requires result was achieved, we should all stop bitching and get on with
a) putting the British first
b) changing the EU to make it into a democratically elected organisation that can be made accountable.
Either way, the UK will make it on its own, and in the end, the EU will be forced to revise its policies for free movement.
Trade will always continue between the U.K. and mainland Europe and the tariffs applied will regulate the cost of products - on both sides.
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I thought the OP said -this isn’t an opportunity to berate people for their choices? Looks like that’s exactly what your post does Keith. After being called ‘bonehead’ and ‘knuckle-scraping’ I would think there’s very little chance of anyone who voted to leave even considering replying to this post now.Why would they?
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Well I am afraid I really cannot be bothered to read all the posts on this subject for the simple reason that none of the big issues relating to Brexit are being addressed by the Leavers. It’s the usual wishy washy that it will be better for the UK, I don’t like Brussels telling us what to do, I don’t like the fact the Brussels is undemocratic, blah, blah, blah. It’s all poppycock of course, the UK is the undemocatic one. So let’s look at few facts, on a personal level the pension income for my husband and I is down €400/month on the bits that come to France. So from us a big thank you to the Brexiteers. I sincerely hope that those living in the UK are beginning to feel the pinch in increased cost of living. Not fair to those who voted remain I know, but c’est la vie!
The biggest issue of course is not immigration but the economy. So the city has been making a lot of noise. Now I know you all don’t like big fat cat bankers, but they do represent 4-5% GDP which in turn is tax revenue for us all. Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, HSBC, and the most gob smacking one to date is Standard Life. I understand the latter has just bought/leased a building in Dublin to ensure their business in the EU. France, Luxenbourg and Brussels are all salivating at the prospect of getting the revenues from possible relocation.
Regards manufacturing Japan issued a public warning on the tariff front. TM has reportedly bought them off for now, but note she has not owned up to how much. We have been told that we can just use the WTO. Not so, the UK is a member of the WTO but through the EU, so no EU membership no WTO membership. So here we are looking at Nissan, Toyota, Honda, BMW and no doubt the newly acquired GM plants by Peugeot will fall under the hammer. Destination Poland perhaps.
James O’Brian interviewed a small business man on his radio program who said he and his company is off. Said chappie is of Spanish descent as is his co-partner and wife. He is going lock, stock and barrel which includes the staff to Murcia. Now James’ face was a picture on this one. He stated that this is a very sad fact of Brexit but when said chappie announced his company’s worth James’ jaw dropped. The figure? £180 million/per annum. A substantial loss of revenue for UK coffers.
Now on the subject of terror which has been the subject of much of the campaigning following the activities of the murderous thugs of ISIS in the last couple of weeks. Now as a member of the EU we are also a member of Europol, the EU’s law enforcement agency whose purpose is to make a safer Europe in assisting member states in their fight against terrorism and international crime. Do not forget the European Arrest Warrant. Once this warrant is issued in one member country it requires another to arrest and transfer the suspect to the country instigating the warrant so said suspect can stand trial. All UK Police Forces are in favour of all of these EU facitilies but Brexiteer Policitians want out!
Finally Immigration. The much hyped ills of the UK. We haven’t got room they whine, we are full up they whine. BUT do these whingers refuse being treated by immigrant nurses and doctors? I bet they don’t. Are they happy to eat the crops picked by immigrant workers, of course they do. Are they happy for immigrant scientists to work on cancer research to help save lives, I bet they are. Have they considered that all these immigrant workers pay tax and insurance contributions into the UK coffer, no I bet they haven’t. Immigration is or was worth £1.4 billions to the UK.
So to sum up why has the owners of the Express, Mail, Sun and Telegraph campaigned for so long to get the UK out. What is in it for them? An inspired guess mooted by many is that they want the UK to be a tax free haven. This is of no use whatsoever to a trading nation which needs to produce and sell.
So Brexiteers I am sorry to have to tell you, you have been HAD. BIG TIME. I won’t be looking for responses for the above from you because recent experience has shown that sadly you don’t have any.
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Because it’s a discussion / debate forum and they are grown ups 
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I didn’t
Angela, most of the terrorist action in Britain has been committed by home grown British Muslim extremists. So, border controls make no difference.
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I wrote that to underline they simply won’t know
For what my opinion is worth, I will add my reason(s) in a couple of paragraphs. But first I should pay tribute to the many fine personal, illustrative and detailed posts by articulate people who aren’t ideologues, just people whose lives are in the balance, and have voted one way or another from understandable self-interest. I’ve learned a lot from reading them, not a few of them who voted ‘leave’ (I’m a ‘remainer’).
I voted remain because I am suspicious of nationalism, which I believe breeds xenophobia when the economic going gets tough. My wife is an indigenous African woman who devoted over forty years of her life to the NHS as a nurse (she trained as a nurse in Zambia). Our children are mixed race adults, and almost all their lives they have faced racial prejudice of the “Go back where you came from” kind, and the more subtle pervasive kind of negative assumptions about character and capability. Brexit was largely born of xenophobia, especially the fear of loss of cultural identity. This is understandable to an extent, but the solution is not closing the borders or blaming foreigners for out economic woes.
Second, I am 79 and old enough to have many recollections of World War 2 and its aftermath. Aged 16 I had a German pen friend in Berlin who had been roped in to the Hitler Jugend. His parents died in the Blitz and he was saved by his Grandmother who walked round the ruins looking for scraps and a place to shelter. He was the same age as me, a silly kid, a lovely human being, hideously damaged by his childhood experiences of Nazi nationalism. He visited us in Birmingham, bringing me a bicycle dynamo and a Berlin pennant as gifts. I am a firm internationalist, and believe in global peace, justice and the equitable distribution of resources. I lived and worked in Africa for ten years and know the African people to be amongst the most intellectually able, emotionally stable, generous, resourceful and inventive of humans. I detest imperialism, colonialist exploitation, and warmongering as an engine of UK and US economy. I value my rights as a citizen of Europe, and believe it will greatly improve in accountability and representative effectiveness with free movement and cooperation. So do all our children who have lived in Europe and made lifelong friends there.
That’s why I voted remain, and also why I love France no less than I love my own, sometimes unlovely birthplace, Britain.
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What a wonderfully eloquent, reasoned and moving post Peter - thanks for sharing , you’ve honestly brightened my day! 
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Not the latest attacks in London and it’s well known that the terrorists who targeted the Bataclan Centre moved freely through Europe.
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