I’ve lived and worked in France for the best part of 20 years and I voted to Leave the EU
It seems to me that the debate revolved (revolves) around two principles:
One was/is to do with freedom, democracy and sovereignty
The other was/is about financial and economic considerations
In my view the former trumps the latter every time, even at the risk of some deterioration in the economic health of the UK.
Some may say that I have no right to risk inflicting economic difficulty on younger generations when I may not be around to share those difficulties. In reply I would say that this is pure speculation because no one, on either side of the debate (neither the doom-mongers nor the utopian optimists), know, with any certainty, what the economic future might be. The future will be what we make of it.
On the other side of the debate one could say that I have no right to take away the democratic freedoms of future generations of UK citizens
My choice was strongly influenced by a book called “And The Weak Suffer What They Must?” by Yanis Varoufakis, the former minister of finance in Greece , not someone who could be accused of being right-wing, narrow minded, nationalistic, or xenophobic - quite the opposite in fact- and someone who has first-hand knowledge of the inner workings of the EU at the highest level.
The revelations about the EU in this book were (at least to me) truly astonishing and shocking such that I was persuaded that I could never wish my country to remain a part of that ‘club’.
There are too many examples to list here so I urge you to read the book for yourselves. However one thing does stick in my mind which is when Mr. Varoufakis mentions those who talk of there being a ‘democracy deficiency ‘in the EU. He likens this to saying that there is an oxygen deficiency on the moon. No, says Mr. Varoufakis. There is a total absence of oxygen on the moon just as there is an absence of democracy in the EU (and what’s worse, it’s designed to be that way).
Somewhat surprisingly, to me at least, Mr. Varoufakis wanted the UK to remain in the EU because he felt that the EU needed a strong force inside the organisation to fight for its much-needed reform.
However I didn’t see much likelihood of the UK being able to do much more than tinker around the edges. David Cameron certainly couldn’t achieve much and with almost 30 different countries to negotiate with I felt (and feel ) that the chances of bringing about any significant reform are close to zero.
There’s a lot of reasons I voted Leave and I’ve explained them before in previous Brexit postings in this forum. But an additional one was to look at the EU as it stands now and think “if we weren’t already in this club, would we want to join?”. Looking at economic chaos in Greece, possible entry of much poorer nations, etc., the answer for me was ‘Absolutely Not’. Now I don’t expect to convince the Remainers in this group - their minds are set as is mine - but I also voted for democratic rights of the youngsters and future citizens. For me the EU is a road to eventual Communism and I’d rather get off now find my own path.
Thank you for voting on behalf of my children. Not one of them thinks that you made the correct decision but let’s think positively; if that small group of islands of mainland Europe manages to find a strong progressive government, a manufacturing industry that produces products that the rest of the world actually wants to buy at the correct price and the ‘financial sector’ maintains its current position worldwide then, perhaps, their grandchildren will reap the rewards.
I lived in Germany, ‘the centre of the EU’ and apart from a few trips into the East before the wall came down the word communism never came into my head.
As you say we are all very different and that’s probably a good thing. What
is even more interesting is how we can look at the same situation and the
same information and draw from it different conclusions, often totally
opposite conclusions.
I don’t know how you voted on Brexit ( I am assuming you voted Remain, but
it’s dangerous to assume, so please excuse me if I am wrong) yet I value
all the things you mention and it’s precisely because of that that I voted
Leave
Simon I am a yank and do not have a dog in this fight, but I have a problem with the EU and its stranglehold on the practice of medicine. I have a neurological condition that is very difficult to live with. I acquired it just days after I was coerced to receive a tetanus vaccine in a California emergency room before they would stitch up a severe wound. I have learnt to live with this disability until it periodically flares up leaving me unable to eat and drink. This happened in 2007 and I visited a French gastroenterologist. I was hoping that I could have a simple endoscopic botox injection which provides full relief for about 1 year. I had done this once before in California before coming to France. It is a simple outpatient procedure that takes less than 2 hours from the time walking into the hospital until walking out the door. It is one of the three medical options for this condition, and the least problematic. Unfortunately the EU Commission has deemed this procedure to be the very last option for this condition, preferring instead a medieval surgical procedure which, for persons my age, has a 40% positive outcome that gets even more bizarre as the corrective procedure to fix the first failure involves replacing the esophagus with a section of my bowel. The initial high failure rate procedure also requires a four to six month long post surgery period of recovery. My gastroenterologist agrees that my requested therapy is a far more sensible procedure for my age and condition, but his hands are tied by Brussels’ mandate.
Don, if you have medical insurance… why not try to get the procedure done on that…surely if your Doctor and your Gastroenterologist feel it is the best option (due to age etc)…this should be possible.
Just wondering… it sounds crazy otherwise, doesn’t it… the injection is available, yet not available…
My Doc is trying his best to avoid surgery for me…and I’m with him all the way… (nothing like your problems thank heavens)
I am with CPAM and they are under the auspices of the EU Commission. Having done years of research, since onset in 1990, I have found some alternative methods of controlling the worst bits of this condition. I have other options for having this procedure performed, but having learnt to deal with it, for the most part, I have foregone acting further.
I only brought it up in response to Simon’s call for examples of how the EU might affect one’s daily life. Having said that and having lived in arguably one of the more laughable healthcare systems in the world, the US, I greatly admire the French system. But, when Brussels bureaucrats can override the medical opinion of one’s own personal physician, we arrive at an untenable situation in my opinion.
@Don_Duca it’s pretty clear that you’re having a tough time medically - it sounds awful and you have my utmost sympathy. For sure it’s a great example of how EU legislation can get in the way!
If I were you, and I could afford it, I’d be on the next plane over to Califorina to get the treatment I needed.
Of course the human rights laws you refer to have nothing to do with the EU.
The EU Parliament is elected by EU citizens, the Council consists of representatives of the nationally elected governments and the Commission is proposed by the Council and approved by the elected EU Parliament.
Those are all facts rather than opinions.
The costs benefits require closer scrutiny, unless one accepts as a fact that the UK pays £350 million a week to the EU and said £350 million would be paid to the NHS on the UK leaving the EU.
For exactly the same reason that, if entitled to do so, I would vote for “Frexit”! I did not support the UK’s entry to the EEC, and have never supported the concept of the UK being subject to an unelected, unaccountable, EU Commission consisting of a bunch of failed politicians from all over Europe! The oft-quoted example of the USoA is, imo, a false comparison. In Europe, there are not “states” in the same way as in the USoA. The USoA grew as a ‘confederation’ - in the EU this was being increasingly imposed. If there were to be another referendum tomorrow, I would vote in exactly the same way.
