Advanced Cancer

Health Care & Carte Vitale
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I have spoken about my friend Christine in the Not Cheerful thread but thought a follow up would be better away from that and in a place where people could choose to avoid if they so wished.

Yesterday, for the first time in 3 weeks, I was allowed by her elder brother Steven, who appears to be here now for the remainder of Christine’s life as he does not have a job in England, unlike her other relatives who have been operating the relay of carers.

I am not sure whether it has been Christine’s choice or Steven’s protective instinct which has made so many proposed visits to be cancelled. But I do believe that, from the tone of his messages to me, her mental state has seriously deteriorated. This was confirmed in my mind after my short, almost completely silent, stay there yesterday.

I had decided to turn up outside unannounced and then to ring Steven from the car but, in the event, saw him sitting on the windowsill on the pavement in front of the house. He stood up, shook hands and offered me a place beside him and we chatted for a while. Shortly he stood up and said he would go and see if she was awake or not and then perhaps I could go in and sit on the armchair not far from the bed. I did just that and he left me alone there silently watching as she slept. He returned a couple of times silently and finally she opened her eyes and gestured to the trolley beside her. He gave her a drink of water and replaced it while offering her a cloth to dry her lips with. All their communication was with hand gestures which they both seemed to understand, there were no words spoken.

He left us again after whispering something to me which I could not hear. At that point her eyes moved round and, on seeing and recognising me, held up her hand in greeting. I murmured very softly ‘long time no see’ and she nodded slightly without speaking.

I had been there 10 minutes and was thinking it was time to go when Steven returned and they exchanged more hand signals. Finally she pointed to me and then held both hands out and turned the palms upwards. Steven then did the same to me but turned his hands and pushed them away forward. He said ‘I think that is time to go’ so I stood up and smiled at Christine, mouthing ‘see you soon’ as I did so. She nodded slightly.

I had not been in that position before, close company with someone so afflicted so was not sure what to make of it all. Perhaps I will see if I try to repeat on my way to kine this afternoon. I had wondered about her possible mental failure a while ago when Steven, after hearing from me of my last visit, when Christine and I had spoken quietly while I sat on the bed holding her hand, told me firmly ‘no holding of hands, no-one is allowed to touch her, not even me, only her daughter Jenny’. He went on to say that he had had to intervene physically when her friend Janet had tried to hold her hand.

I may have to take him to Perigueux before the end of the month for his visa renewal but the situation is such that he might not need it. I can understand her complete exhaustion every afternoon after being taken from her bed and made to do all the things that the numerous health visitors had had to do. Understand it because, although very gentle, she was one of them doing just that to my Fran a couple of years ago. If it was me in her place, I would be fervently wishing not to wake again after dropping off to sleep.

No idea if I will ever see her again, but I will make the effort this afternoon. 3pm walk Jules, 4pm arrive at Christine’s, 5pm back to the, friendly, torture chamber. :grinning_face:

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It’s a shame you couldn’t hold her hand, as I think that’s a very personal and caring way of being with someone in that situation. I’ll be in the same situation myself with my brother before too long and will be by his side holding his hand when he goes. I won’t be sad as he has suffered for several years with a degenerative disease and has mostly been very matter of fact and accepting about the whole thing.

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Holding hands can be painful for people. With my mother we would place one hand palm up beside hers, and if she wanted to and was sufficiently conscious she might lay her hand on top.

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Strangely enough in view of this I have just read the following from my latest Oldie magazine in an article by American Research led by neuroscientist Pavel Goldstein at the Institute of Cognitive Science, University of Colorado, very firmly suggests it is the latter. When someone who really cares about you holds your hand, his newly published study* concludes, it does reduce the level of pain.

He refers to this as ‘social touch analgesia’, :thinking:

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In what context tho’? Entirely agree that physical touch, hugging, holding hands etc can have huge +ve effect. Not sure it applies 100% tho’ when one is in the final painful stages of life??

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The final stages can be hard for those who are watching because our needs are not necessarily the same as those of the person who is dying.

I read this in the final year of my brother’s dying of cancer and found it very helpful.

Not sure if it’s in this book, but it was interesting to read (somewhere) that it is not unusual for the person to die when their loved ones are not with them - for example children go when their parents have gone for a break / get a cup of tea. The parents then feel guilty, but that’s not the way to look at it.

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When my wife died in December , I was on my way home to feed the cats. I felt bad about it, but I don’t think it really mattered because she was really out of it and had been for about 3 days on heavy morphine and in a coma. Our daughter was there every minute. For the last week, she didn’t really recognize us or know who we were. Fcuk cancer.

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With my wife, although she had been very ill for a long time we didn’t really expect it when it happened. Saturday afternoon and the health person, Bernadette was with us and I was worried about her for some reason but Bernadette thought she’d be ok 'till Monday when the doctor was supposed to come. But she could see my face and said ‘I’ll ring 15 if you want me too’ and she did. Pompiers came, gave her a good check up with all the machinery, as always, and then put her in the ambulance for Perigueux.

She was sitting up and looking very bright when the man said ‘do you want to say goodbye before we leave?’ I said to her with a wave ‘see you tomorrow’, our neighbour had already booked herself to take me, and we both smiled. Little did we know that she would die in her sleep just before 2am. The hospital rang at midnight (to the neighbour, always my go to contact) and said she will die soon if you want to come, she has been moved from Urgence to Palliative. I said that I did not want to trouble the neighbour and certainly don’t drive, especially 100 kms, in the dark.

I would have loved to have been there, to hold her hand, but I know that I wouldn’t, she would have been asleep, just like Christine, and who was to know how long it would have been?

Do you know what has troubled me ever since? In France they do not apparently put cause of death on the certificate, I have no idea why, or why it should bother me so much, but it does.

Back to Christine, I parked outside at 4pm as I said I would and messaged the brother, but no reply by 4.15 so I drove on to my kine. I find it hard to believe that he doesn’t have his phone on 24/7 like mine is at the moment. I have had nothing but praise for that family since she was sent home to die, but find that his attitude, especially as we have become so pally, a little hard to understand.

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Some years ago, I queried this same thing and was told (the French equivalent of ) "such information is private and the Death Certificate will be given to and read by all sorts of people… "

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If he is with her, then perhaps no need? Sounds if the family are 100% focused on as peaceful an end as possible for her, so don’t want her bothered. Perhaps not the choice I’d make, but it is their choice to make.

As for Fran, the very common cause of death is simple heart failure. It stops beating. So try not to worry beyond that.

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Do you know the cause of death? As she was in hospital I wonder if they gave you and your MT a “compte rendu”, which I would have thought would have given the cause of death, as it’s a private document.

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No they didn’t, I thought it will all come out later, but it never did and then it seemed too late to enquire. I can’t even remember why I insisted on ringing that afternoon, Bernadette, who out of all of them would be the first to notice something wrong and insist on the call, didn’t think it was necessary. Whatever it was, it was obvious enough for a doctor to ring M-P at 11pm to tell me that she would die within the next 2 hours or so, and that if I wanted to see her beforehand I should come straight away.

Oh well, water under the bridge now, and I have C to consider, and we definitely know the cause with her.

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Parked outside on Friday at the usual time but didn’t knock for fear of waking her so texted Steven to say I was there but no reply (and still not now) so who knows. I would be more worried if it wasn’t for the fact that all the health visitors go in every morning and, as I have contacts amongst them I would know if something was awry.

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I wrote the above in the first post of this thread. This morning she got her wish and died peacefully in her sleep with brother Steven sitting alongside.

His text arrived a short while ago, I have the feeling of dread each time I see one waiting from him and today it became true.

But dread is not appropriate, I knew from her own lips that she was counting the days to be free of life, so, although for myself I am so very sad, I have a feeling of relief that at last it is over.

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So sorry for you David. She was a good friend at a very tough time in your life.

As you say, a relief in some ways. Glad she went easily. Thinking of you.

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RIP Christine. I hope you will re-find some happy memories of her soon, David.

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I’m sorry for your loss, David.

My sincere condolences to all of Christine’s family and friends.

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Sorry for your and Christine’s family’s loss David - but she is at rest now which is a blessing.

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A feeling of relief that such suffering has come to an end is exactly the way that I will feel when my brother passes. He has suffered greatly and continues to suffer but with great dignity. The memories you have of the person, and the recollection and sharing of those memories with friends and loved ones is very precious and keeps that person alive in your memory.

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Thank you all, it sounds as if I have lost a familly member and it does feel like that in some ways. I remember when her husband, Laurent, died last year I told her we owed her so much and she only had to ask if there was anything I could help with. She told me off saying ‘you owe me nothing, I loved Fran’, and so it was, family crossovers again.

But she is having the last laugh too. She will be cremated and her ashes mingled with Laurent’s, and both of them scattered in the river that runs through the town. I am pretty sure that is illegal in France so if you see a funeral party creeping shadily along a river bank in the next few days, you will know where I am. :joy:

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