Be interesting to hear TMs response to Boris's remarks!

Yes!.

Doems that mean more of the Tories or is there another party waiting in the wings?

Unelectable? Untrue. The facts speak for themselves.

Jeremy Corbyn has been elected to Parliament as an MP at every general election since 1983, therefore for 35 years, and victory at 7 GEs. I very much doubt he will lose his seat at the next.

He was elected Labour leader by a huge majority of Party members in 2015.

His electabilty suggests he might well be a strong contender at the next GE, and he will certainly have my support in his efforts to form a representative socialist Government.

So if Labour decided to carry on with Brexit Peter you’d still vote for them?

Peter is quite correct hat Corbyn is “electable” in the sense that he is a sitting MP in Islington North and has been since 1983.

However Islington North has returned a Labour MP since 1937 so it just might be that he has been the right party’s candidate in the right place.

Some further analysis of his electability here

But it is the wrong question - the question is “Can the Labour Party with Corbyn at the helm win the next general election”.

I’m less sure of that - they failed to get a majority in 2017 against what was widely regarded as the most incompetent campaign run by the Tories in living memory and I do not see a lot of evidence that they have “got it together” since. Instead they have been mired on controversy from sexual misconduct to anti-Semitism and wreath-laying in Palestine. They are as divided over Brexit as the Tories it’s just that the spotlight has not been on their policies on this issue.

At present they do not offer enough “clear water” between themselves and the Tories on Brexit to think that it will be the defining aspect of a GE, were one to happen before the end of the year. They would be sensible to support a 2nd referendum in the sense that it might offer a short term way out of the impasse in which we currently find ourselves without the party having to think too hard, or destroy itself with internal disputes - but I am no longer sure (if I ever was) it is enough to get them elected - the public are a bit burnt out by Brexit and just want it to be over. In any case I do not think that a further referendum will provde long term clarity.

What would the options even be - ideally there would be more than two but the UK hasn’t ever submitted more than one question with a yes/no choice to the electorate in a single plebiscite.

If (as some have suggested eg Len McCluskey) it starts with the premise that “Remain in the EU” cannot be an option as that has “been decided already” I doubt I would even vote - unless EEA membership were one of the options presented.

So, assuming a binary question:

Leave vs Remain - this might go to Remain this time but would provide no long term resolution. It would almost certainly re-energise the Leave campaign and lead to (reasonable) accusations of simply re-running the vote until the required answer was obtained. It is also not cut and dried, Leave might get enough traction out of “it’s all the EU’s fault that negotiations are failing” to win - what then? It does not inform the debate as to the form our leaving should take or get us any closer to a solution to the NI border issue.

“No Deal” vs Norway-style EEA/ETFA membership or Canada vs “Norway” - if this went to EEA membership I don’t think it would be far off full blown remain for re-energising the likes of Farage. If it went to No Deal or Canada there is still masses of work to do and neither address the border issue.

No Deal vs Canada - two bad choices, I predict low turn out for that one.

If I were choosing I would put all 4 options on the ballot i.e. No Deal/Canada/Norway/Remain. I’d have a transferable vote scheme so the options would have to be ranked by preference and I would have on the ballot paper a warning that following through with no deal or a Canada style FTA might necessitate a different regime in NI with checks for goods crossing the Irish Sea. Oh, and I’d make it mandatory to vote, include all ex-pats and anyone over 16 because it is such an important issue for the future of the country. I’d probably include any EU worker who would have rights to remain if they applied (so, basically anyone here ≄ 5 years) I might not make it compulsory for them to vote though.

It won’t happen - such a ballot would never be presented to the British public, it would, however, be the right ballot to hold for medium or even quite long term resolution of the issue.

Personally I would not vote for Labour if the manifesto simply states “we will hold a referendum” because there is too much scope for holding an unhelpful vote. If they published the referendum question that they would ask then I might - depending on the question that they proposed putting to a popular vote. If they stood on a “Reverse Brexit in the short term and have a national debate on our future relationship with the EU and whether, long term to leave, and if so, how” I would swallow my pride and vote for them - in fact I think they could win a landslide on such a platform.

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If there was ever a time when Corbyn could be elected, it’s surely now
 thanks to the bungling and
arrogance of the Tory party. Whether he’ll be any good as PM, and whether the country as a whole

wants to back to old fashioned socialism, remains to be seen.

But was that time also not in 2017 when the Tories bungled their campaign (a taster, perhaps, of the mega-scale bungling that was about to masquerade as Brexit negotiations)?

He failed then, what has changed that would make him succeed now?

That’s interesting - I hadn’t read this article when I made my comments above. Uncannily similar thoughts.

@anon88169868 Paul is very generous, my answer on Corbyn’s electability was a rather crafty response to a rather loosely framed question, but his policical stature shouldn’t be underestimated, given the attacks (unfair and dishonest IMO) he gets from the right-wing press.

I’ve been disappointed myself that Labour didn’t send a clear message to the electorate on Brexit, choosing instead to keep its powder dry, and wait until it saw the white of the enemy’s eyes before firing a round (these cobwebby metaphors may not make sense to millenials, but may ring true to older types).

I don’t think Corbyn walks on water, but I admire the strength of his principles and convictions, on Palestine as on apartheid South Africa and nuclear disarmament, both issues I have protested about actively myself over my lifetime, with Corbyn as an example to follow, a man whose beliefs have usually been vindicated, an internationalist, and a peace-seeker.

There is a strong possibility that he may not gain an electoral victory over the forces marshalled against him, but I live in hopes that he will. The world is undergoing major realignments in many spheres political, economic, technological and demographic, and it is fascinating to be an observer of and a minor participant in change.

The next six months are as much exhilirating as they are anxiety-provoking, and I feel lucky to be alive to witness them, so far
 :pray::upside_down_face:

Unfortunately I don’t think that the Labour party is keeping its powder dry so much as trying to hide the fact that it has no powder to fire.

I can’t vote for anyone but if Jeremy Corbin says something or believes in something I trust that he will be saying the same thing in 24 hours, in a week, in a month or until he gets information that makes him realise he was misinformed. I wouldn’t trust Boris Johnson, Rees- Mogg or Teresa May to be saying the same things or having the same beliefs when I wake up tomorrow. They, their researchers and their advisors will be looking to the future to do whatever brings them personal gain. You may not like Corbin’s politics but it’s hard to question his integrity. What a shame there are not more like him, whatever their political stance, in Westminster.

We’ve done this one, I think. His support for the IRA and the more recent airbrushing of that period alone would make it extremely difficult to vote for a Labour candidate while he is leader. It would take something like a clear commitment to reverse Brexit in the short term given that the harm that will cause might actually rival the harm caused by “The Troubles” - and, in fact, might re-ignite that particular problem.

I should say, though, that while I voted Remain and believe in the EU project I am not blind to its inadequacies and I can see that, longer term, the UK might not wish to accompany the rest of Europe to ever closer political union.

But the present situation is, to borrow a military term, fubar and we really need to pause and take stock of the harm we are doing to ourselves.

Paul, I had that sinking feeling one gets after firing off a dud metaphor e.g. about keeping powder dry, and after being holed below the water-line (will that do? :thinking:).

Let’s settle as example on the Zulu victory over the British garrison at the Battle of Islandhawana where spear-carrying ‘natives’ over-ran and annihilated troops with modern armaments, with the former’s superior strategy, superior numbers, superior mental and physical agilty and a worthier cause.

Think Labour youth, Momentum, and the exercise of true representative democracy and solidarity, and think again. :grin:

Unfortunately my thoughts on Corbyn get stuck on IRA supporting Trotskyite.

As I said I could just about swallow that for the greater good but the good would have to be very great.

Integrity is all well and good, but what about doing what’s best for the country?

The trouble with the others is that the others would say one thing then, once elected change tacks. None of them would get my non existent vote. In my opinion not one of the potential leaders is prepared to put the best for the country as a high priority. I still, however have time for politicians who say what they mean and mean what they say.

The way you put this question, Tim, might be understood by the uncharitable to mean that you think what the country needs is a stiff dose of corruption, dishonesty, double-dealing and exploitation of the common man/woman by rich and greedy elites. As if we haven’t already had our fill of that by now.

No idea what you’re on about Peter, Corbyn and Labour have it within their power to stop Brexit but so far Corbyn’s ‘integrity’ has got in the way.

Oh, I see what you mean. I thought you meant integrity was not what the country needed, but the opposite.