TY for the edit @graham missed that one.
It’s not going to change anything
we know that but if it makes people feel better for trying
True, I might even have joined them if I were not in France this weekend.
Doing nothing will change less Paul, but!
Where there’s life there’s hope
But they had the right to do it …I mean Create the situation.
They had the right to vote.
I say that it just should never have happened and that democracy
should not be offered in such a wild situation.
People who were brain washed into voting for this disruption will be
the same people who will not admit that they have done the wrong thing.
That’s as very absolutist position, Paul, and untypical of you who is a paragon of even-handedness in such polarising debates. The better conclusion might be that we can’t predict what may result from the protest, but “no change” is improbable.
Remember the butterfly wing and tornado systems-theory notion. Harry says that some people may feel better for having marched. That’s a change, and who can say where that may lead?
We are discussing it here. That’s a change. Who knows where it may lead?
yup end of the day it probably will not have any effect but what if the slimmest of chances that this action was noticed and it caused a ripple that becomes a wave.
Its a bit like the well i’m not filling out that form for them just to say no. what if by not filling out the form you missed out on a YES.
Some action is better than no action.
Pro and anti brexit while against each other both were there for the same reasons.
It is kind of you to give me a vote of confidence.
I am not sure I would describe myself as “even handed” since I generally “take a side” in debates - however there are a few things.
I assiduously avoid ad hominem attacks, they do not persuade people that one has a valid point and tend to push everyone to the defensive so whenever I find myself wanting to scream at someone I usually put off replying for a bit. Sadly I’m not 100% effective at this tactic.
I generally try to back a point with evidence and/or go through my reasoning.
I try to be open minded, and to take time to understand someone else point of view - even if it only to be able to come up with evidence to the contrary (of course, I might change my own mind which is not a bad thing).
I try to spot and root out fake news, propaganda, woolly thinking and demonstrate that it is not reliable evidence.
Of course I am guilty of inaccuracies and bias (especially confirmation bias) - I’m not perfect; who is?
As to the march - I think it “worth it”, as I said I might even have gone to support it were I not over here in France but I do really believe that in and of itself it will not change anything.
Will it persuade the government that there should be a second referendum? - that seems unlikely given that May has ridden roughshod over attempts to allow Parliament final scrutiny should no deal be reached - if she will not put it to the House she won’t put it to the public.
Will it make ker more likely to “soften” Brexit? Not really convinced about that one either when we have Jeremy Hunt attacking Airbus and BMW for being “unhelpful” so if she will not listen to large companies explaining in short, simple language how it will hurt the UK she isn’t going to listen to a few thousand (yes, I know it was 100,000) Remoaners on a rally.
Will the Labour party pay any attention? - probably not; Corbyn wasn’t there was he?
Because he doesnt have an answer… not a clue…
He is just waiting for the Cons to implode and then he will have his Revolution.
Then , God help us all…
Thanks, Paul, for a very complete, straightforward and elegant reply. A pleasure to read and assimilate. An example I should want to follow.
I am disappointed that Corbyn has not been full-blooded in his enthusiasm for a second referendum on Brexit, but I was always aware the he is in principle opposed the the political aspirations of those who favour closer union in a transnational European ‘superstate’, but he knows that many working class voters are resolutely pro-Brexit, so he is on the horns of a dilemma.
I have no idea of how’s things will pan out, and my personal concerns are only how Brexit in whichever form it ever takes in the medium to long term will not compromise our future, that of my wife and myself, who are very recent residents (2015) and of advanced years (combined years 154),but also the situation our children will eventually inherit (the property) and its on-going costs after our deaths etc.
We shall just have to wait and see, trust we may both have a few more years in hand to adjust to new circumstances, and hope for the best…
So far we have had a very soft landing, a very accommodating encounter with all the local bureaucracy over health matters, tax, titre de séjour, driving licence and so forth. And a kindly welcome from local people. And we feel happy and settled at home. I hope the general situation is set fair for all immigrants, on both sides of the Channel… Britain’s are by and large fair-minded, though the Tories have more than their share of bigots and individuals with imperial pretensions, like Boris Johnson.
Officially he was visiting a refugee camp in Jordan.
But you are right - he has no more clue than May, not least because he is a leader with no love for the EU who, despite his lukewarm support during the campaign, would support us leaving the Union.
The tricky thing is that most of his grass-roots support, those new, young, party members, are something like 80% in favour of remaining - the Labour party has its own unsquarable circle.
My oldest friend, admits he was wrong, but he is a big enough man, to admit he was ‘duped’!
See Fat Boris will be abroad for the 3rd runway vote, he could have made a difference, being splattered by a bulldozer, a man of ‘principle’
He should be in jail like the poor woman in Iran who has had her jail term extended because he opened his big mouth.
I hope his electors kick him out next time round.
It must be very hard for Stanley and Rachel Johnson, both keen Remainers, seeing him make a fool of himself yet again.
if the politicians are not “man enough” to admit that they are wrong in order to save the country…just how are those who do not think for themselves be able to realise and admit that they have made a big mistake?
MP’s are elected to carry out their constituents wishes, their personal views don’t count.
Those who voted Leave don’t believe they have made a mistake.
No, MPs are representatives, not delegates or proxies. They are supposed to vote for their constituent’s best interests (all of their constituents, not just those that voted for them) and their own view as to where that best interest lies is most definitely important.
More-or-less true - current polling suggests 52:48 for Remain were the referendum to be re-run now. How much that is a younger, pro-remain, cohort joining the electorate and how much that is people changing their minds is unclear but presumably a small number have done so. Only a small number though.
I can not see the point of not believing in what you are fighting for. If your personal views as a politician do not match…how ca