How do you feel about the tradition of bullfighting in France, should it be banned or are there more important things to concern ourselves with?
Anti corrida protest turns violent
Horses with protective padding (Dax)
Bull being transported from Dax arena
I've just seen some horrific photos of another Spanish tradition called Toro de Fuego where they set fire to the bulls horns. Google it, I warn you though the images are extremely unpleasant.
Although I am against animals in any 'entertainment' sphere - zoos, circus etc., I did view something that I thought was quite impressive in the humans v. bulls area, and that was where unarmed men (and presumably women?) face charging bulls unarmed and vault over them. That did/does take courage and skill, and the bull as far as I could see didn't get hurt in any way and a very good chance of getting his own back if he got pee'd off with the whole proceedings!
Of course for the truly 'macho' it would be disappointing as there was no 'Blood in the Afternoon' so beloved of the knuckle-draggers.
Bull fighting in the 21st Century, hmmm. Now, if they let the bulls lose , with no hindrance or chemical alteration , and people want to stand there with a cape like batman, and nothing else , well that might be an idea. I would find it moderately diverting to see them smashed to death by a rampaging bull, but only for a short time. It would get very boring and predictable after a while as monkeys against bulls only comes out one way when the odds aren't stacked in the monkeys favour. They would have to rename it though, something like "Stupid monkey immanent death fighting", or something equally catchy.
As it is , with the bulls completely nobbled before the start, where is the possibility of sport in that. Nothing but a grotesque waste of time.
If one really wants to see animals killed and get some sort of kick out of it, visit an abattoir. Even better, get a job in one, and you can save all the entrance fees.
My 2 euro cents, and nothing more.
I have just watched this video. Only briefly saw Catherine's comment on remaining polite so I am not going to read ANY of the comments below (pro versus against obviously). All I can say is that the protestors appeared peaceful and, I have to say, very brave. The anti protestors were aggressive beyond anything that was necessary. They were violent and very unpleasant people. Many seemed to be "skinheads" (the no hair, no brain variety)who were greatly enjoying "putting the boot in". So it seems the demonstration did its job with much of the help coming from the pro bullfighting camp who showed themselves to be violent, unprincipled bullies! On the other hand, the demonstrators were well behaved and calm. I think that says it all then................
Even deep sea trawling is cruel. Try being a cod and being suffocated by the weight of your siblings! At least it is done for a justifiable reason, and not just to sate mans’ blood lust. It’s also why I just don’t get the need for war games and gory movies. I want things in my life that make me feel good. How bullfighting, (or even performing animals in circuses) makes people feel good is beyond me.
I joined this group because I thought that true discussion was encouraged. Neither Jim or I used insults. Yes, we made it personal and disagreed, but only used polite insult-free arguments. Unless you just want a long thread of lobotomised people saying "Hate it, torture ", or "love it", you are bound to have passionate people writing in. At least, one can hope.
I was surprised and grateful that the Rodhilan video was posted since it shows the real face of supporters and it is personal to me since my friends took part. All the points I made in my original posting were relevant to the discussion.
I regret that comments have to remain grey, disengaged and politically correct. It is a rather unrealistic, not to mention hypocritical, to start a thread about emotive subjects and expect everyone to give dispassionate monosyllabic answers and ignore the comments and provocations of others.
That's all from me.
My main occupation in life is writing books about different market sectors and the advertising used in them - mainly posters as these fit the format. I have just completed one on 'SPORT', which covers some 400 pages with more than 800 illustrations. Guess which 'sport' doesn't get a mention? Right. The reason is obvious, despite afficionados (did I spell that right?), any activity that involved the cruelty or even exploitation of animals has been explicitly omitted, with only horse-racing getting a very minor mention, and sorry 'the Chasse' ditto.
Thanks Catharine and Joe, time for quiet relection rather than gut reaction. Not one person on this thread has justified the Corrida but to go into the minutest details of rights and wrongs of passive protest and what people might be misses the point entirely. Indeed, I think it feeds the point of people who say that animal lovers are all chaotic and anarchic and do it just as a way of saying something, being heard, etc. We know that is not true, but let us not encourage it either. So please, polite and not insulting.
Well said Nathalie and Brian. While I understand that Jim is genuinely against violence I think he may have been blinded by the fact that he was personally involved in a despicable attack I think he over-reacted in categorising Nathalie with letter bombers. Seems to me like she showed restraint and gave us all something to think about beyond the cruelty in the bullring. Looks to me like we are all on the same side here against this sick practice. I don't believe it is right to do nothing and just exchange views but we should make our voices heard whenever we see cruelty even when it is uncomfortable to do so.
Hear hear Catherine. That is me signing off now, people need to use this site as an exchange of views not as an arena for gratuitous insults.
Let's keep this debate polite and non-personal please people. Thank you.
Jim, you seem to have an agenda. Your provocative and fallacious arguments are as predictable as they are boring. You made it personal when you put all activists in the same "cowardly extremists" bag. I have been a PEACEFUL NON-VIOLENT activist for many years and, as Brian rightly notes, passive resisters are the ones subjected to verbal or even physical violence. I do my best to help those who suffer - animals and human beings and it gets tiresome to be the target of people who have nothing better to do. Governments send tree huggers and non-violent animal liberators to jail for up to 10 years whilst rapists get 3 months. Their priorities are clear: property is more important than life and decency. People who resort to physical violence discredit the animal liberation movement and are a shame and a disgrace. But since you are so intent on lecturing about violence, why aren't you as vocal about the abject violence 63 billion land animals are subjected to each year worldwide, so that people eat their flesh; and how about the millions of animals literally tortured to death in labs, or the millions of animals skinned alive for the fur industry, the hundreds of bulls tortured for the amusement of a bloodthirsty mob, the millions of animals shot dead for the amusement of the wealthy in some countries, and of the drunk illiterate scumbags in mine. And the list goes on. How about that violence? You talk about a subject you clearly know nothing about and use generalisations to suit your own personal agenda against a minority of thugs who have little to do with animal activism. On Facebook, you would probably be called a troll, somebody who posts provocative and irritating comments to get under people's skin. You are not even annoying me. You are just embarrassing yourself.
The protest was a peaceful one! At least on the part of the protestors…
Jim, I did not read Nathalie's post as any form of advocacy of violence from pro-animal activists but simply as (verbal) activism met by pro-bullfighting people's violence. Read again slowly. The problem is that if one sets out a non-violence stall of any kind then its opponents very often use violence to end the lobby. The argument violence breeds violence is so often thrown in for good measure but is far too often entirely wrong. Passive resisters who are beaten up are also very often the ones arrested, find out from a serious source and you will find out had sadly that is genuinely the case.
Careful with words too Jim, it may be normal for you, part of your normal dialect even, but to use the word 'girl' is provocative. It is not 'politically correct' to be neutral, it is simply common sense.
Firstly, I can't even start to take seriously anybody who says "girl" in his email! It does not add any weight to your fallacious argument, it just makes it silly (and I am being nice). Secondly, maybe you ought to watch the video and then tell me how the activists were violent!! The only violence came from the thugs that hide behind pro bullfighting. It is also so predictable to read about letter bombs! I do not condone violence, letter bombs included. Putting all activism under the banner of extremism and letter bombers is just sad and misinformed. Go get educated.
Your apoplectic response and personal attack just amplifies my comments, as to letter bombs I have dealt with one victim of such an attack from the ALF and she was a secretary (now without fingers and partly blind)so yes I am serious, as to using the expression girl then maybe I was being too kind and apologise for the misnomer. Activism is fine until it moves that one step beyond. You are obviously blinkered by your passion for this but never make the mistake of assuming that others are wrong because they disgree. I state again bloodsports are abhorrent but violence begets violence. It is a point of view that maybe you ought to consider
While I agree with your sentiments Nathalie I disagree with your methods, It is never right to resort to violence for a point of view, there will always be those for and those against blood sports, I reiterate that I have seen the results of cowardly extremists who will send letter bombs, use violence and intimidation to press their point of view They sicken me as much as the cowards and followers of the blood sport brigade, the truth is girl that two wrongs never make a right and if you go and set your stall out for a fight you will probably get one making you as guilty as them.
Thank you James for posting the Rodhilan video. Three of my friends were at this demo last year and were the victims of the blind and cowardly violence of the pro bullfighters. One of them was off work for a week because of a rib injury, and another had severe bruising to his face. I add that both of them are strong, tall men! My third friend, a woman, was not in the middle of the ring but in the stands and one of the "spectators" tried to throw her down the high, concrete steps. Fortunately she managed to get assistance from other activists. These pro bullfighters showed themselves for what they really are : coward, bloodthirsty violent thugs. Other demos of this type had occurred throughout the summer and activists had each time been beaten up by the "staff" but always away from cameras. It is a miracle that nobody was more seriously injured or even killed. What else to expect from people who think that torture and death is entertaining ? We are all so glad that they showed their face as they will face charges.
Somebody mentions extremism. The activits are NOT extremists. This word is just nauseating when it is used to describe people who are peacefully fighting for decency ! What is extremist is to think that it is ok to torture animals and get away with it.
Somebody on the Facebook thread said that the torero is fighting for his life?!!! What a joke! The bull's ordeal starts days before the corrida. He is starved for days, dehydrated, kept in the dark, chemicals rubbed in his eyes so that he cannot see properly. The list of horrors goes on.
On Friday, the Constitutional Council rejected the plea of organisations and decent people to ban it. It is no surprise when you know that, in spite of Hollande's promise to keep the issue neutral, the interior minister was in the south of France with his entire family and publicly declared his love and support for the corrida !And what to think when pro bullfighting people are sent in to rule with Council. Just a farce.
Nevertheless, this is not the end. The organisations are taking it to the Court of Human rights and do have the support of a majority of French. But the root of the many horrors animals are subjected to comes form our speciesm. As long as most people think that animals are inferior beings and for us to use, their hell will continue.
The slaughter of animals for public entertainment is an abomination in a modern world, having said that I have seen the results of extremism purporting to be in aid of "animal rights" and consider that these acts are also an abomination carried out by people who planned their atrocious acts and could be considered as more vile than bullfighting, If change is to be made it should be done legally so that it becomes unlawful. I am afraid that the actions of extremists tends to have an adverse effect, it focusses attention awy from the problem rather than towards it.