Bullying in French Schools

I am at my wits end and I don't know what to do or who to go to. Sadly, my daughter is the only foreign child at her school. At first I thought this would be an advantage to her as this would make her concentrate on learning the language and integrating well. Her schooling was going well until the teacher we had was head-hunted by the academy to be a specialist sports advisor to the areas schools. He was very strict, he knew everything about his students and their problems and was very conscientious with helping those who found any aspect of their learning difficult. We have had him replaced by a young newly qualified teacher,who quite frankly has not got a clue about what is going on in her classroom. To put it mildly she is too nice and therefore useless with discipline. Since this new teacher has started my daughter has been subjected to verbal intimidation from , telling her that she is totally thick, whispering about her behind her back and there is one girl in particular who is leading this intimidation. She instructs the other children not to play with my daughter and today I find that she has be intimidating my daughter by keeping a tally on a piece of paper on her desk of how many times my daughter goes to the teacher to ask for help and then bitc***g to the other kids about it and there is now another child picking on her. My daughter is feeling very down and she is now worried about asking the teacher for help because everyone is watching her now. She is a very intelligent little girl and in fact is doing better in her assessments than some of the French children but I am worried that she will soon stop asking for help and she now says she is frightened sometimes to tell me what is going on. I have spoken with the teacher and last time I wrote a letter to make my concern formal. She took my daughter and the girl that is causing the trouble to one side to supposedly discuss. I now find out that the issues were not addressed and that all the teacher did was tell them they had to be friends and she made my daughter say that this other girl was a nice person she also instructed my daughter to stop telling me about what was happening. The teacher has not addressed any of my concerns with the girls parents and I do not know what to do next. I feel like going directly with a written formal complaint to the academy. What would you do or has anyone had anything similar? By the way my daughter is 9 years old. The girl that is doing the bullying belongs to a well know fruit farmer who has a substantial amount of land in the local area who is well respected and quite wealthy by comparison to most in this area. I am not sure if the school do not want to rock the boat with them or if it is just that the teacher doesn't really want to get involved. I do not believe that they are aware of their daughters behaviour.

Sorry I failed to notice the date on the post, but I am glad it has turned out well for you and your daughter. Fingers crossed all will go well for both our kids, and if anyone is in the same situation....don't stand for it, be proactive and change schools!

We changed schools this year for my 9 and 7 year old with great results. My son has gone from a class of 9 kids to a class of 28 and is absolutely loving it. We spoke to my cousin in the UK who teaches the same age group and he said that education wise small classes are good but social wise they are an absolute nightmare. Glad it worked out for you Claire

Hi Allison. It is funny that this thread has started up again. We stuck it out for a little while longer until a boy at the school lamped her and then it was enough was enough, so we did a little research and ending up changing her school just after winter hols earlier on, in the year. She is flourishing in this school. There are 98 kids at the school compared to 18 at the old school and 22 in her class alone. The teachers are more disciplined, there is a code at the school covering bulling and a protocol that involves warnings, going up to total expelling after two warnings verbal & written. She has been put in the highest stream and her work is improving no end, she has lots of friends as well. I just question why I didn't do it sooner. Well, you live and learn.

I really feel for you and your daughter and if it makes you feel any better, we have just been through this with my daughter too. She did well in primary school, but once she went to college things went down hill and the bullying started.

For the first few years all was good and she was making excellent progress, especially as when she came to France she could only speak a few words. By the end of elementary school and the first year at college she was gaining "felicitations" in a number of subjects. However, at the start of the school year in September things changed. She became withdrawn and secretive, also on occasions moody, lippy and even tearful. Initially I put it down to hormones, but after asking a number of questions realised something was going on at school. I am open minded and know that my daughter is no angel and some of the issues could have been generated by her, but at christmas she was especially horrid and I asked my older daughter who was visiting from the UK for the festive period to talk to her. We found out that she had been slapped and consistently bullied and excluded from social groups in the playground by a couple of girls who had formed "Cliques". She told my older daughter that she had been in tears and had to sit outside the principals office while she recovered. The school did not notify me of any problems or even inform me that there had been an issue but it had been "resolved". So at the end if January we were invited to fill in a form to see teachers for parents evening. I thought it would be a good opportunity to find out what was really going on. We had had issues with certain teachers not turning up for class and a constant barrarge of calls from my daughter saying "can you pick me up, I have finished for the day" when she was starting at 10am and sometime finishing at 1.30pm!

I arrived at the alloted time to see the Technology teacher, the French teacher and the English teacher...........2 out of 3 were absent without any explanation and had queues of angry parents waiting to see them. Unfortunately for her, the only teacher present on my list was the English teacher, so I apologised before I started but let her have both barrels, explaining that the school was sherking its responsibilities not just to my daughter to to others too. She explained that the school knew they had a problem but were trying hard to sort it and I would have to have patience!! Urrrr NO this is my daughters education and future we are talking about! At that point I decided to look at other schools in the area and speak to parents, alot of which were as disgruntled as me and were/are considering changing.

The following week after the parents evening my daughter had her phone stollen out of her pocket in class. She knew who did it and reported it immediately, I went to the school and threatened to call the police. The culpret initially denied any wrong doing but was eventually outed 2 days later and handed the phone back, but with no apology and no diciplinary action from the school. That was the final straw..

I after having found a school recommended by many others that had a great reputation and was very high in the league tables for results I contacted the headmaster. He was very understanding and agreed to see me immediately. That was at the end of January and as I write my daughter has been at the new school since half term and is much better, she has made new friends, there are other foreign kids there not just English and French, she is boarding for the week and coming home at weekends and still has her nice friends from the old school to see when she is home. Initially I was concerned as the new school was private and I was scared that the costs would be prohibitve, but at approx 350 euros per month including board and lodgings I think it is a good investment in her future. God knows what the same standard of school in the UK would cost!

I know it might not be an option for you to consider changing schools. Initially it will be hard on your daughter as finding new friends is a daunting prospect for anyone, let alone a 9 year old but perhaps it worth considering. Have a look online for other local schools and speak to other parents to see if they know of other better schools in the area. I know it is not always just one factor that is to blame, but if your child is suffering and your concerns are not resolved, you need to do something now before it becomes a bigger issue.

Good luck

Charlotte, I am not quite sure if you have the correct people on this forum or why you are posting this here? or who it is directed to.

I would like to tell you as your Croydon neighbour that persistent noise and disturbance by your tenants all hours of the day and night is also ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE. Will you please sort out your UK tennats at 19 Temple Road so that your neighbours in the UK can get some sleep and be in a fit state to go to work.

I am sick to death of your vile out of control property and tenants!!

Hi Clare, I read un article on "France Info" and thought of you.
It might help


http://www.franceinfo.fr/societe/harcelement-a-l-ecole-un-plan-d-action-pour-que-ca-s-arrete-1227493-2013-11-26

All the best to you and your daughter.

Sorry, that sounds horrible. I'm a teacher and before moving to France I taught 6th grade at a French school--I was the homeroom teacher. I was used to high school and so shocked to find out how mean younger kids can be--and how it really can affect the kids who are being picked on (and frankly even the bullies who get a little backlash end up feeling terrible and stressed out). It's a bad situation for everyone.

I noticed--in my opinion that culturally the French teachers were somewhat more lax about bullying (and perhaps French parents too). There was a kind of 'deal with it yourself' attitude. One teacher even told a girl who was being bullied to 'just be mean' back.

Regardless, it's frankly quite hard to deal with as a teacher because sometimes you'll get the bully not being honest about what they did--obviously--but you didn't see it happen. . .again hard to handle even for a veteran teacher but a newbie with a class out of control is going to have far more problems.

I'd say first try to get your daughter to face it as their problem not her problem, which I know is hard to do, but it's important she see that they're the ones being petty and obnoxious and that there are always people like that out there who are ready to pick on someone for--whatever. And probably in junior high the bully will get picked on etc. I think no one is spared.

Is the director of the school decent--or do you know any of the more experienced teachers? They might be able to give you some advice or the new teacher some advice--also, all of the teachers are around during recess time. My husband is a primary school teacher and he has started working with a problematic student who he will have next year just to give him some stability (not your daughter's same situation, but still, her own teacher is not the only resource you have.)

If you can establish that the girls' parents are reasonable people, maybe trying to contact them would work--but if they're a little crazy that can backfire--you have to be the judge of that. Maybe other parents of kids that can be there for your daughter could also be an asset. You know, so you don't get others just going with the flow of the bully. Maybe help foster a few really good relationships with some kids in her class--or in a class close in age group.

Dunno about how useful the inspection could actually be, but they can be known to at least attempt to put pressure on the teachers, so as a last resort, it might be something to try. You might also want to mention your concerns about the new teacher and the discipline issues. Maybe she seriously needs help.

Good luck! I feel for you. My daughter is only three but I dread the thought of helping her face bullies. . .

Have you tried speaking to "parent délégué" of your daughter's class? This is a parent who should help communication between parents in situations like yours and also between parents and teachers if necessary. When I had this "job" in my kids' school a mother rang me one evening as her daughter was being insulted by a very popular girl. About the same story as you are telling. I spoke to the girl's father (fortunately a very sensible man) who took this very seriously and things calmed down very quickly.

Neither of you can be accused of trolling Norman. Using cats was asking for trouble to begin with. I have always had dogs (plural) and as much as I know dogs I would never make the comparison without expecting it thrown back at me.

Norman, I have made my living working WITH children rather than studying them from a distance or from books, articles and so on. I have been a parent twice over, having young children now. I neither cotton wool wrap children nor move in an imagined world of perfection. I have also worked to one extent or another in around 40 countries. France is one of the ones I have never done so in, but England and Wales both amongst others here in Europe. So I do not only know the 'south'.

PC is the standard excuse for those who believe in a world that was. Things change and evolve including society. Thus we old boys are not always the best judges of what is right and wrong.

My professional sphere does not just consist of weirdo social scientists like my OH and I, but many more of us in our discipline areas, plus lawyers (they are often academic lawyers heading centres, judges and so on), psychologists, medical academics, educationists (including many teachers), non-governmental organisations such as Save the Children (in all member countries where there is a Save), Plan International, World Vision, etc, UN agencies including UNICEF, UNESCO, WHO, ILO and a number of other committee and treaty based organisations working worldwide. Then of course there is the Convention on the Rights of the Child signed by all but one country in the world and ratified (thus adopted into national law) by all but three nations. The CRC contains the 'sentiments' I am expressing, particularly ones one will find in Articles 12 and 13.

However Norman, should you feel that you know better and that many thousands of people who are practitioners, parents, researchers and campaigners as well as parts of the international community and academic world are all wrong, could you explain why we are all wrong in precisely laid out words.

Ah, now the Troll accusation! Inevitable really, but what a shame.

The point about cats which obviously you are unable to comprehend is a thing called 'comprehension' and 'visual reference' _ i.e. Observe and note. I have made it VERY CLEAR (in caps as you have a main problem with both observing and noting) that I am not, nor ever have been a parent, but SHOCK, HORROR I was once upon a time a child, albeit when cave-dwelling was de riguer.

PLUS I am a member of Society that is affected by other people, as I affect other people by my behaviour. As such I am conscious of the unwritten and written laws that make society function.

Now I do note a very interesting point in your diatribe against me, feeble though that may have been. You note that your parents were attentive (not under discussion here but still), taught you good values (questionable or at least ineffective, as by your own admission you still 'went off the rails') and kept an eye on you physically.

Now as you have turned this into a specific case as has Brian, I have the reverse to be true having come from a no-love home, where discipline was administered, possibly a little harder than is acceptable today, as with schools. Now at almost 74 and having been born in a violent neighborhood, worked for great chunks of my life in distinctly unfriendly territories lived and worked I am disppointed in myself that I cannot admit to ever 'going off the rails' however that translates into deeds. Because I was inculcated with a sense of discipline (and a fair chunk of cowardice to go with it, as I didn't like punishment)

So where does that take the argument? Precisely nowhere, as quoting your, mine or anyone else's particular case is not the point. Here we (well, I) am trying to address a widespread problem, and both you Brian and others can quote individual cases until the cows come home and it will not change one single case of bullying against a child in a school now.

I at least have suggested something tangible and I believe effective. Others such as you and Brian have disagreed with me - Brian at least using more lucid argument than yours, BUT I am still waiting to see and read anyone else's suggestions for improvements.

I have stated and reiterated my views, others have disagreed with them, and I have no intention of 'trolling' any further in the issue, which is becoming circular and pointless as your comments have proven.

Violence. What excactly is the line? It's violent to smack a child who drinks your orange juice without asking but if a child bites you for no reason or pushes another child down some stairs, I say a good smack is very justified. But I think ALL incidences of violence need face-on challenging and managing. If I see a parent smacking a child, but I don't see the cause, I want to know why and I have the right to intervene and demand an explanation. The child is vulnerable and deserves intervention. So is an adult victim. If someone attacks me, adult or child, I have the right to react naturally to an attack and to be allowed to fight back if I can't run away.

In the 70's, before smacking at school was banned, we had a situation of institutional bullying which was totally ingrained in many schools. It was discipline gone Nazi. My own grammar school was a fine example. One girl I saw caned for wearing a skirt too long. But I don't think the answer is a fast and hard rule against every physical action(often given the violent label). Not all physical action is violent. Some of it is reaction = self defense.

We need laws which help define the difference between punishment & bullying, violence, self defense and victimisation.

Are you abdicating responsibility as a parent of children under the age of 10-12 years old then Brian? It very much sounds like it to me.

The discussion as I have followed it revolves largely around the behaviours of those under these ages, or possibly I have misread it? So you appear to suggest to leave them to their own devices, or even vices? I find that curious to be honest. You suggest that a three-year old for example has the ability to reason, and make decisions like an adult? Or should they, to use your own expression in an earlier post to let them go 'feral'? Lord of the Flies and all that?

I believe the subject calls for sweeping statements and sweeping considerations and actions and not for specifics. Everyone can quote specifics - you do, I have - neither of us having great childhoods but I still maintain that with sadistic exceptions I submit that most parents have no desire to beat their children up, but to communicate in the only appropriate manner.

You obviously think differently, but I can't think of a single instance in my life where I have ever been ever able to hold a rational conversation with a four-year old, or even a ten-year old for that matter. Fair enough that fault can easily be mine.

What troubles me with your rationale and some others is the immediate and apocalyptic view that any parent offering reasonable discipline to a child is a sadistic thug out to destroy them. I don't believe this is a case at all, and reveals a possibly darker side to your own nature if your mind rolls down these tracks?

I have proposed that a smack on the bottom of a recaltricant child will do more long-term good than hours of wasted conversation and discussion. It has never ever crossed my mind to beat the hell out of them, and I don't think very many parents would believe that as a way to go either. It also surprises me that you obviously believe that a sense of discipline is something that can be left at home on a hat-rack and have no relevance when a child goes out? I suppose it is possible, but one would have hoped that a sense of discipline would be more portable than that - again parents may disabuse me (and disappoint me) in that perception.

Yes I accept that maybe in Peru this is a different thing, but if so then it is you who are putting a sweeping judgement on everybody rather than me doing so. Mine is what I believe most parents would consider reasonable - and I do stand to be corrected on this, which is to protect a child and provide them with the best possible chance of understanding what the real world is all about.

Yours seems to be to wrap them up in cotton-wool, and which I submit is more damaging in the longer-term than helpful to a child. I advocate discipline which I maintain is the only way we can all inter-relate in our communities. Lose that then we have a society where anything goes.

However, I fear that your approach is more current PC than mine, but as I have said before I don't see it has improved anything, and indeed I have noted the opposite appears to be the case, hence this discussion?

Norm

:-D

the letter is of course a disgrace. The head teacher has now withdrawn it and apologised, and quite right too. But it is worrying that such attitudes exist. If I had a child at that school I would start looking for another school, and I hope I would find one which does not engage in this kind of propaganda, but i fear I would not.

This is a lengthy and very sad train of posts. Clare, I am so sorry that this is what you are experiencing in your school, I am not sure what to advise, but keep going - keep going into them and break through that barrier. For those who are now terrified of the French system from reading all these posts, I just wanted to say that it isn't all bad! I have three children in Primaire, they are 10, 7 and 5 (they've been in school 3 years) and they are all happy, there is no bullying and they seem to be thriving on the stricter regime in the schools here.

They are also human beings in their own right, people with their lives and are not the property of parents as your words imply Norman. Morally we have absolutely no right whatsoever to make any decisions over their heads. Yes, age is an influence, but once children reach school age they have minds of their own they can express. The tendency is to talk about children, over them and too little with them. Discussion and agreement are dismissed too easily. At base, the notion of YOUR children, responsibility and so on are constructs of law rather than acknowledging their humanity. As for parents are to blame and nobody else, justify that my friend. Parents can do everything 'right' and in those periods out of sight and 'control', such as in school, those children can do the opposite to parental expectations. So be very careful with such sweeping statements.

Yes almost stunning that the teachers didn't have the brains to realise what they were doing - or maybe they did? As others have noted and I experienced there are plenty of bullies in the teacher ranks.

Still doesn't change my views on discipline, and all I have read here thus far have been 'they are writing reports so are taking it seriously' sort-of nonsense, but still nothing being offered tanglibly as a sensible alternative.

In the mean while yet another young teenage girl committed suicide last week in France and was probably only one noted. As ever the mother appeared not to have even realised what was happening - how can this be? I have never been a parent, but I know even if my cats are out of sorts and try to figure out why! (Pause whilst parental hackles raise all over the site? - You don't know never having been etc., etc)

Whilst most parents seem hell-bent on passing the buck to teachers, authorities, educationalists, Nato, United Nations and Uncle Tom Cobbly and All, the fact remains they are YOUR kids and YOUR responsibility and if you don't teach them to stand up for themselves in this world - then YOU are to blame and no-one else.

End of rant.