Call for EU27 to confirm status of UK citizens

seconded on all points, Véro :wink:

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pigs might fly :expressionless:

Sorry Grahame, but with all due respect other ‘Brits in Europe’ I would not accept that as legal Gospel. I suggest you look at French Government sites fora clearer view - but I accept that until the final, final situation is sorted out with the UK, even that could change. You can’t make legal Agreements with countries who just ditch them as and when they feel like it, so that will be a compounding factor for sure.
I would suggest that as in reality there is nothing either you or any ‘Brits in Europe’ can do until the position of the UK v Europe is sorted.
Presumably end of December? Three and a half months away?

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What really concerns me is our healthcare and that is up to the UK government. We have already had those abominable letters saying that we will only have six months healthcare from the UK if there is No Deal.
Once again it looks as though we will have to rely upon those such as Gina Millet et al to bring a legal challenge.

My main personal concern at present has been explored in another thread. My wife can transfer her UK contribution years into trimestres here in France and gain a French pension that will be both more generous and 5 years earlier than in the UK - but this arrangement is only still available after this year because it is written into the withdrawal agreement.
This is likely to affect any UK emigrant to the EU that has worked in both systems.

I thought that was only in the event of no agreed withdrawal agreement. My understand is we are now protected under the withdrawal agreement the current discussions are for the trade deal.

Depends how much of it the UK try to tear up - at the moment it is a couple of small areas in respect of the NI protocol. It doesn’t stop it being significant in legal or political terms that we want to unilaterally alter those but we are a good way from ripping up the whole deal. Fortunately it also looks like the EU are not going to take the bait and walk away from talks.

Except that the ERG, given a whiff of an inch, are baying for a mile and would  cheerfully rip the whole thing up given half a chance.

The only option is to keep an eye on developments.

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Poppy, you are right - the WA as it stands does have provision for S1 etc

Health care

The WA continues all the current rules for reciprocal health care. Specifically:

  • If, at the end of the transition period, you hold an S1 form from the UK, it will continue to be valid for as long as you’re resident in France and the UK will continue to fund your health care costs. The S1 form is issued to those in receipt of UK state pension or some other qualifying sickness or disability benefits who are living in an EU country. You will also hold an S1 if you and your spouse/partner are resident in an EU country but one of you works permanently in the UK.

  • Your family members are also covered - for example, if you have a spouse who is not yet in receipt of state pension, they can be included on your S1 form and will then be covered for health care as your dependant, as they are now.

  • If you hold an S1 form from the UK, you will also continue to be eligible for a UK-issued European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) which will cover you for medically necessary treatment during a temporary visit to any EEA country or Switzerland.

  • If you are a UK state pensioner who holds an S1 form registered in an EU/EEA country, you are entitled to receive full medical care in the UK, on the same basis as someone who is ordinarily resident there. This is covered by the UK’s ‘Charging to Overseas Visitors’ regulations rather than the WA. If possible, it’s best to produce your S1 to benefit from this.

  • If you’re living in France before the end of the transition period but you haven’t reached state pension age at that point, you may be entitled to receive an S1 form when you qualify for your UK state pension. This would apply if you haven’t worked in France OR you haven’t worked long enough in your host country to qualify for a retirement pension here - in these situations the UK will become responsible for funding your health care.

  • It goes without saying that if you work in France and are covered under the French health régime appropriate to your employment or self-employment, OR if you are currently non economically active and covered under PUMa, you will continue to be covered by all the current rules for reciprocal health care as well, including access to a CEAM (France’s equivalent of the EHIC card). This CEAM may be used in any EEA country and also, under the WA, in the UK.

Last September, the UK government announced that S1 health cover would only continue for 6 months after Brexit. This would have applied only in the case where the UK left the EU without a WA - a ‘no deal’ exit - and it does NOT apply when the WA is implemented.
The rights covered by the WA will extend for your lifetimes, or until you stop meeting the conditions under the WA (for example, you move permanently out of your host country back to the UK). So please don’t worry that your S1 health care is time limited - under the WA, it isn’t!

except IIRC that some of the wording inserted in the Bill allows Ministers to decide what aspects of the WA to disregard… without the approval of Parliament - or even debate. Dangerous territory…

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Not sure that’s true, it was that ministers had the power to decide which goods would not have the provisions of the Northern Ireland Protocol applied.

Analysis here: How does the Internal Market Bill breach the EU Withdrawal Agreement?

That said I think there have been some demands from the ERG to extend the “opt out” to other parts of the bill and amendments could certainly be tabled to that effect - but I don’t think anything concrete has yet emerged.

I am sure they have THEIR best interests at heart… So all is good.

If there is No Deal who knows.
Cummings is on record as saying that the WA was only agreed to to get Brexit through and it was always going to be changed.

It’s amazing really - the government are now openly admitting that the deal that was lauded as “oven ready” and “an amazing deal” was something that they intended to discard as soon as they had used it to get through the election and get out of the EU. It must have been planned as I recall someone (probably Davies but it might have been Liam Fox) saying essentially the same regarding May’s deal.

I don’t know if legally this amounts to election fraud but morally it must do so.

But if anyone is still clinging to the idea that there a depth to which this lot will not go they need a serious re-think.

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In extremis the EU can void the Withdrawal Agreement, EXCEPT for the provisions regarding the limited protection of UK citizens’ rights.

However the aspect of UK citizens’ rights that the EU used as bargaining points and refused to agree (ongoing FoM for UK citizens in EU27 states for instance) will be lost unless the EU27 lives up to the fundamental EU principles encompassed in the EU treaties and legislation.

This is all part of your rights that BiE, RIFT, the Peoples’ Challenge and others are working to protect.

Most of the remedies for UK citizens’ living, working, studying, owning businesses or properties in the EU27 states will be against the EU and its 27 member states.

Grahame Pigney

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Gosh… are we all still waiting for these pearls of wisdom?

It certainly isn’t electoral fraud.

If the UK Parliament passes the Internal Market Bill there will be nothing that UK citizens can do to reverse this as Parliament is Sovereign, if the UK Parliament chooses to ignore the UK’s treaty obligations it can.

The EU can force the UK through the dispute process and if the UK ignores that the EU can apply sanctions/tariffs against the UK, applying financial penalties would be a waste of time by that stage.

Do the UK’s MPs understand what is at stake, personally I would think not.

Margaret Thatcher, for all her faults, understood the significance of the rule of law whether domestic or international. Given that she was the proponent of the Single Market and measures to restrict/nullify the Jacques Delores vision of a a federal EU I expect she is spinning in her grave.

Grahame Pigney

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It’s pretty questionable though to campaign on how brilliant a deal you have done if you intend to tear it up at a later date.

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Who was it that said the Tories used to try to conceal their lying - but what they’ve learnt from Trump is that it doesn’t matter - you can now lie openly for all to see and still get away with it?

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Differences between what and what?

Veronique, if you are sorted and believe yourself safe why should you comb through the hundreds of pages of treaties and legislation.

If you have been supporting BiE, RIFT, the People’s Challenge you will have had clear explanations about how UK citizens who live, work, study, own property or businesses are having their rights stripped away.

This information has been put in the public domain, including on forums such as Survive France for the past 5-6 years.

BiE, RIFT, the People’s Challenge and others do not have a magic money tree and rely the principals digging into their savings and the support (financial and otherwise) of others.

Grahame Pigney

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It’s a power thing - they lie because they can, because no-one can challenge them and they don’t care - in fact even relish - the fact they enrage the few of their opponents who can still tell truth from untruth.