I think that you are missing a basic point. After Brexit Britain will have left the EU and the border will have a completely different significance. A slight change from the current position. Certainly worth thinking about.
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Much has been made of the future Irish border situation, but perhaps a different mind set is needed in order to resolve the issue in a way that is at least tolerable, if not preferable to all involved.
One of the planks of the Good Friday Agreement is that the citizenry of Northern Ireland have the right to think of themselves as being British, Irish, or indeed both at the same time, and they also have the right to change their mind about their self determination of nationality as many times as they wish. Indeed said citizens all have the right to hold both British and Irish passports at the same time.
So given that the residents of Northern Ireland are entitled to be citizens of the south if they so wish, then clearly a hard border between Ulster and Eire would be as untenable and unacceptable as having such a border between Devon and Cornwall.
So perhaps the question that needs to be asked is: “Following Brexit, is a border needed at all ?”
In practice all the Irish people would have the right to cross it at will in any case, the movement of Non EU citizens could fairly easily be monitored as they entered or exited the island of Ireland, be it north or south, and so the only purpose such a border could serve would be in respect of taxes and animal health perhaps. Could not the Irish people in general be left to sort these things out for themselves without the involvement of either Westminster or Brussels ?
OK, so there would be some loss to the UK Gov’t of a bit of tax and Customs revenue, but surely that would be a price worth paying in order to maintain peace in Ireland.
In the USA different states have different laws and different taxation. People cross state lines to buy a car at a cheaper Sales Tax (VAT) rate, people base businesses in one state rather than another to take advantage of differing taxation set ups, folks step across the state line so that they can buy hard liquor on a Sunday, and what may be a crime in one state isn’t necessarily illegal in another. Generally the people manage quite well, the different state governments have learnt to live with it, and the Federal Gov’t in Washington DC just keeps it’s nose out of such matters.
So bearing all this in mind, why can’t the issue of the Irish border simply be left to the Irish to sort out, be they from Eire or Ulster ?
It is not just a case of the Irish crossing the border.
The EU see the Irish border as a way into Schengen.
They do not want to leave their back door open.
Just in case people thought Corbyn would change his mind about Brexit -
Apparently he believes the EU will allow him to re-negotiate, deluded fool.
I don’t see how that can be the case bearing in mind that the Republic of Ireland is not a Schengen Area country.
It’s a bit more complicated than that hence so many people looking to find an acceptable solution. Personally I think that they should avoid having a border in Ireland but do customs checks on everybody and everything travelling to and from Great Britain and Northern Ireland but the idea of a land border between to parts of the United Kingdom is unacceptable to too many influential people.
As a Brexiteer you should see the problem very clearly. You argue for customs control at the UK borders and the border between Eire and Northern Ireland is exactly the same. Once people and goods cross from one place to the other they have basically evaded the rigorous controls that leavers demand. Travel from NI to GB is control free as is travel between Eire and Europe.
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This goes round and round in circles doesn’t it, alternating between the Brexit mantra of “taking back control of our borders” on the one hand, and not seeing the need for a border on the other hand. LOL.
But as soon as you start to trade with anyone, they want to make sure you have a border all the way round. Whether it’s the WTO, the EU or individual partners, they will want to make sure that you as a trading partner are in a position to ensure that the terms of the trading agreement are not abused by third parties - which means making sure your borders are leakproof.
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“given that the residents of Northern Ireland are entitled to be citizens of the south if they so wish, then clearly a hard border between Ulster and Eire would be as untenable and unacceptable as having such a border between Devon and Cornwall.”
That means there would have to be a hard border between NI and GB, which is exactly what the DUP don’t want, it is also as unacceptable as having a hard border between Devon and Cornwall. But if the UK is out of the EU, there needs to be a hard border somewhere, and that is the problem.
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Dydh da. I know plenty of Cornishmen who would love a hard border.
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Exactly. There’s no problem with any of that. Because the US is one trading bloc. All the states are part of the same economy, they all want the US economy to prosper.
The same happens in the EU - folks living in France near the Spanish border cross the border into Spain to shop their groceries because it’s cheaper, folks buy cars in Belgium because they’re cheaper, Brits in France buy stuff from the UK because it’s what Brits in France do, folks in NI and Ireland can go to and fro to buy stuff as they wish. That’s fine because the EU is all one trading bloc.
But, it’s a totally different kettle of fish when it comes to trading with external trading partners. Surely you’ve heard Trump talking tough about making America great again? If external trading partners start ignoring trade agreements the US government is not going to keep its nose out, just like other governments won’t keep their noses out if the US starts shipping chlorinated chicken into their countries.
So at present, the UK and Ireland are in an equivalent situation to the situation you described in the US - people can nip across the border and legitimately use the economic differences to their advantage, because it’s the same trading bloc, they’re all in the same camp, they all want the EU economy to prosper. But Brexit changes everything because it will no longer be the same trading bloc. The UK and the EU will no longer be in the same camp, they will each be looking after their own interests and their own economies. NI will be in the UK camp and Ireland will be in the EU camp. Surely you can see how this makes a difference?
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Who is going to wipe their bums, pick their vegetables and do all the lesser skilled jobs?
I can tell you now, it won’t be any of those who are complaining about immigration.
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Items come across from UK or Northern Ireland, cross the ‘border’ and into Schengen.
Simples.
Jane. The Republic of Ireland is NOT in the Schengen Area.
Basically, the point I am trying to make in relation to the Irish border, is that the history of the island of Ireland creates a very special set of circumstances, and that because of this, a solution which is outside of the norms for borders between different countries needs to be found.
My own proposal is that perhaps the best way to deal with this particular border is simply to pretend that it isn’t there.
I think you’ll find that as the Republic of Ireland is not in the Schengen Area, that there are indeed Passport Control points in place for travel between Eire and the EU Schengen Area.
As a Brexiteer I’m sure that you will appreciate that those checks are far less rigorous that you expect when coming into Britain. Wasn’t that one of the basic concepts about taking back control?
I presume you didn’t watch the nice and easy to follow video highlighting the complexity of the Irish border.
I did watch the video actually, but it really didn’t tell me anything that I wasn’t already aware of.
To be honest, the standard of rigour of passport checking for travellers between Eire and the EU Schengen Area after Brexit, is something that does not particularly concern me. That is a matter for the EU and Eire authorities to decide upon.
Should an undesirable person enter Eire from some other part of the EU, and then travel into Ulster, and then attempt to cross the sea to mainland Britain, then no doubt the surveillance of such movements that already takes place will soon identify the individual concerned.
The Ulster / Eire situation is a special case with unique factors embroiled within it brought about by centuries of history. Therefore the resolution of this particular issue has to involve some ‘outside the box’ thinking.
Yup the tooth fairy and some elves will sort it all out.
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