CdS being obtained by non-resident second home owners

Really not sure I understand your comment! Since I have been established for years I’m not sure how I could have managed better, or indeed who you are referring to that managed better, and managed what? And why should I want to be richer?

If it is about a CdS I made clear that it was a temporary irritation that people were being fraudulent and said… “now I am calm about it”. Their business not mine.

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I, like Jane, get very irritated and frustrated by those who have illegally and dishonestly obtained CDS when they are not actually resident. They will of course likely eventually suffer the consequence when the French tax office start asking for tax returns, as those who claim residence will be liable to complete them. I imagine at that point we will be reading tales of woe and disgust with the system etc, my popcorn is ready for the event :slight_smile:


I just don’t understand why anyone would do that. It will get very messy trying to extricate themselves from that bureaucracy.

Simple, because they can.

Proof of residency is minimal so unless the various government depts are ‘joined-up’ so to speak there’s a fair chance that people will get away with it.

I think the various departments are rapidly becoming very joined up so heaven knows what the results of that will be (and also whether the government thinks it is remotely worth their while bothering of course!)

I feel I owe @JaneJones a reply to her reply and here seems a good place being about absent CdS holders!

Pleased to report MMe’s CdS duly and promptly collected from the prefecture on her return from plague island - interestingly her passport was stamped on France entry, despite the printed e-mail ‘attestation’ - though at least it prompted a discussion with the stampers colleague when protested.

Jane’s comment got me reflecting though on the ‘ongoing’ residency requirement - e.g. if I as a frontalier was here 6 months I’d probably have my residence right transferred from that category to inactive? I know cross border teleworking ‘restrictions’ have been suspended due to covid at regular intervals - now up to November! - but one wants to keep on the right side of these things?

I know some on the forum are frontaliers who are between contracts and not travelling - I wonder how would less regular commuting (daily or once a week according to the EU definition) be viewed by authorities - if at all?

Jane’s comment is prompting me to research the residency requirements in a bit more detail - I’ll report back.

But meantime, on the non-resident second home owners topic specifically, if one has a permanent WARP - CdS (i.e. > 5 years qualifying period) then it (seems to be) perfectly OK (legal) to be tax resident in UK and maintain the status if you regularly (or at least every 5 years) return to reside in said second home - no mention of length of visit so one night would suffice?

And maybe there might be a moral sense too - people with second homes, been happy visiting for years say for a long summer, then brexit and now they have to get visa’s etc?

Presuming they’d be deemed economically inactive they would need health cover? Required for exercising the (TFEU) treaty right of free movement / as per Directive 2004/38/EC? Could they not argue 3 periods of 2 months EHIC per year gave the required health cover and 6 months / year residency for 5 years? Or longer term travel insurance?

WA Article 10 (1) - … this Part shall apply to the following persons: (b) United Kingdom nationals who exercised their right to reside in a Member State in accordance with Union law before the end of the transition period and continue to reside there thereafter;

At the start of the application it is made very clear that the WARP CdS is only for permanent French residents and not regular visitors which no doubt second home owners are, tax residency doesn’t come into it.

I have had discussions with several second home owners over this and all of them without exception have thrown the ‘moral’ argument at me whilst ignoring the bald fact that by obtaining a CdS they have committed an offence and therefore run the risk of tough penalties should they get caught.


A real ly nice border guard told me in August that he had to stamp my passport until I actually had a CdS. This makes sense to me as just because you’ve applied doesn 't mean you’ll be successful.

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To have a permanent WARP card you have to have lived here legally as a RESIDENT for over 5 years….contributing to the system, with adequate resources and being here 183+ days a year. So the issue is that they have obtained this card fraudulently, not that they are using it fraudulently. After all, I could now leave France for 5 years should I so wish. But after 5 years I would have to return to be a legal resident, ie more than 183 days in a year, declaring taxes, joining health system and so on. A few may do that as they were planning to retire here, but most won’t!

There was a British Embassy online event last night, and in the rambling discussion on this issue the official did manage to state that WARP cards are for residents, not visitors….


You either live here and pay into the system etc. or you’re a visitor/tourist/second home owner and don’t. And I think that all those who have or in the process of getting cards fraudulently may well come unstuck in time. It looks like post-Brexit relations are going to be more than tested by the fishermen who are already kicking off about the non-renewal of their licences in UK waters, I think this is the thin edge of the wedge and just the start of what could be a rather low period in Franco-British relations… on verra !

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I am really glad that OH and I have made a great effort within our community and surroundings…
“the UK rubbish” is often mentioned by French folk as they try to understand what on earth is really going on “over there”.

and … after discussions… with lots of raised eyebrows etc on both sides… it is very comforting when they say to us… “don’t worry, it’s not your fault. We know you both, you are our friends”.

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I cannot imagine that France will go around taking cards off people who shouldn’t have them. It would be a waste of resources and would not benefit France in any way.
I can easily imagine that upon expiry of the provisional cards, permanent cards will not be issued to people who do not meet the most basic checks because they do have the expected tax records etc.
For visitors who requested a card because they basically wanted to be able to come and go as they pleased in the short term, this will not be a major problem.
For visitors who intended to eventually to move here and saw this route as a way to avoid the need for a visa when the time came, it may backfire because the fact of having been refused a CDS and having abused the system may go on record and may go against them in the visa application process.

Why do people get hung up on passports being stamped? Unless you’ve being living under a rock for 20 years, your passport is machine readable and gets scanned every time you cross an international border outside of the EU.

I take it the stamp is intended for the traveller’s benefit, so that a traveller can see at a glance what date they crossed the border and work out how long they have left, and also so that the traveller cannot try to dispute the date with the border officials. As you say, border control doesn’t need to look at the stamp.
I guess the way to look at it is, better to have a stamp and not need it, than not to have a stamp, forget what date you arrived and overstay by accident.

As I mentioned last week, mine didn’t get scanned arriving at Toulouse airport from the UK. The border guard just opened my passport, ignored the TdeS inside, stamped it and returned it. Didn’t even look at me.

Thank you for the reply. The CdS application was indeed very late in the year. As for many, the absurd ultra-thin Brexit deal provoked the CdS application. We bought the place in March, but couldn’t get over till late June because of the travel ban. Definitely no France-acquired income, but still need to do a form declaring UK pension I guess. Just received a tax number by email, so I can now register my online account and take it from there.

I do not know exactly how al this works but is an electronic record of the border crossing not made automatically by the airline when you checkin to board your flight?

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There’s also backup in case of later dispute of the electronic record. Which is why, if I had a CdS, it *would* bother me that my passport was stamped incorrectly.

I totally agree with you. I didn’t mind at all. I wonder i f the guard fe lt the need to explain because he’d been challenged before.

It’s great you didn’t mind but in the grand scheme of things that’s not really what matters. My question is whether it’s correct or not, not whether it’s reasonable. The explanation given was certainly reasonable, but I wonder what the legal text actually says with regards to this. Everything I’ve ever seen said was that if you have the attestation and can reasonable show you’re resident your passport should not be stamped. Since Jan 1st there has been some back and forth to whether you can use other evidence, but assuming the attestation is reasonable evidence that you are resident, and given until the end of the year you don’t legally need to have the CDS in your hand, what he said sounds a reasonable argument, but not a reasonable application of the rules as I understood it, although as I say the burden will be on what the text actually says, and frankly I can’t be bothered to search it at this time :joy: If he’d been challenged before (and I appreciate that’s hypothetical) perhaps it’s because he’s not practicing the letter of the rules but his interpretation of them, especially given even people with the CDS have had passports stamped too. There really does seem like a basic lack of training around this as at this point there shouldn’t be variation of the rules.

Anyway, just some thoughts, I don’t really have a strong view either way.