Kent, isn't this the 'turn the other cheek' mentality? I have just finished reading about this appalling Tulin Dog-eating Festival in China where thousands of dogs are skinned, fried and eaten alive in the name of some spurious 'heritage". Sorry but not only could I not forgive these filth, but I would love to put them through the same torture.
Right, yes that means I am no better than them, because it has poisoned my mind? No, it is just plain evil and if I did it I would have a very clear knowledge of what and why I was doing it. Yes, again the Humanists amongst us would say that makes no difference - and maybe it doesn't but denying some things certainly wouldn't change a thing. a 'MIGHT' against a 'WOULDN'T'? Sounds a better option to me.
I'm afraid that turning the other cheek is very like turning one's back to me. Two wrongs don't make a right? Doesn't hold up to close inspection that - even philosophically speaking. Depends on your definition of right and wrong doesn't it? Throw away any moral compass and then everything becomes all right then doesn't it? Or should that be all wrong?
Lots of people and creatures have died through that bit of philosophy.
No no no - they forfeited that right when they made the choice to kill. There any millions of more deserving people around the world that really deserve education and work.....
I'm not for capital punishment either, I wouldn't want to lower myself to the level of the species that commit atrocities in cold blood. I would like to see violent offenders being put to good use; there's all sorts of work they could be made to do to earn their keep (and their free university education and use of sports facilities, in countries like Canada). But people get all offended and shriek about human rights when I dare suggest that these prisoners do useful manual labour. The world is upside down.
You may be willing to pay for their cell, bed, toilet, food and 'well-chosen' books - I'm not. Just put them out with the garbage - after all that's what they are - human garbage.
I think I understand why people forgive such things, even without religion being the reason; it's just better for oneself not to poison one's mind and spirit with the poison of hate.
As for hanging them or whatever state sanctioned punishments, I'd have to say that, philosophically speaking, two wrongs do not make a right.
Myself, I'd have t confess to being not quite that evolved just yet - and I'd like to put them in a cell with a bed and toilet facilities and feed them meals via a flap and never let them have contact with any member of the human race - ever. Some well-chosen books, perhaps, to while away the rest of their lives.
Heather, you are NOT a bible person, yet you quote something that sounds rather biblical.
Sorry to say I am definitely NOT a bible person, and when I see evil, I don't have any humanitarian urge to say it was the fault of his'upbringing' or anything else. In my book we are ALL responsible for our actions, and Brian can be as Humanitarian as he likes, and I am somewhat surprised at the statement following his work among deprived children? but there ARE truly evil people in the world and denying it only makes it worse.
Pol Pot's mother probably loved him, and I am sure the murdering and torturing scum of ISIS have mothers and fathers who think they are wonderful 'Warriors of God', probably the same ones who wrap their children up in dynamite and send them out to a noble 'Martyr's Death'.
Convince me that these apologies for humans are anything other than evil, and I might even be persuaded to open a bible again, although I doubt if even your 'bigger picture' would do that - whatever it means.
Brian, thank god you're here. I was deliberately being provocative and waiting for you to step in ;-) I know, I'm terribly judgmental, it's really a curse. Today it's my way of expressing my revolt and despair over too much evil in the world. I'll tell you what, we can wager on whether a) he was a choirboy who got bopped on the head one day; or b) he started torturing the family pets at a young age (and you know where that can lead). We don't have to be right, it's just a discussion forum. And you'll notice that I don't use his name. He doesn't deserve the fame.
Yep, that's true Donna. He was a strange person all round. He continued to build his father's 'empire' and sold out the electronics company to GEC in 1990. He built a golf course, bought the pecan nut farm, bought an island in Cape Verde for his hols, owned houses all over the world but he was never charged for taxes because he simply gave his domicile as somewhere else so in fact, he didn't have a 'residence principale' ! All the tax authorities from the USA to Belgium to Denmark to Switzerland etc etc couldn't pin him down as a resident so he didn't pay taxes !
Happily though, all his ducking and diving didn't do him much good as he was living 'on the edge' all the time for fear of being caught. His blood pressure was something like 220/140 WITH tablets ! His death wasn't a surprise !
Donna, in your choice of words are you better than those you are passing personal judgement on? Such words as 'reptile' or 'expressions like 'unfortunate offspring of King Leopold II' are exactly the kind of language that feeds a mentality such as the American Deep South. Either you are trying to provoke reaction or else you are full of prejudices. Such things as human beings born bad is prejudice itself. What you are saying is that if somebody is suddenly struck by a seriously mental illness, which does happen, that they are then automatically bad. By that logic everybody who becomes a 'hero' on a battlefield because their temporary courage is actually a trauma in which even survival instinct switches off and they take chances well above their normal capability. Those who survive sometimes get stuck in it, what one never hears is how many find their way into secure hospitals. You exclude the possibility of something similar happening here without knowing. I do not either. Neither of us have any right to judge and choose such words or without knowing and as for blaming his 'breeders', that is terribly unjust without knowing what his life was like. All we know is he was brought up by his violent and abusive father, but we know no more than that or the effect on him.
Unfortunately it was as little as ten years ago. He didn't really get to enjoy his millions as he dropped down dead in a Brussels street at the age of 70. Ironically he had flown from New Orleans to Brussels especially for an appointment with his very expensive GP for a routine check-up ! Funny old world, ain't it ?
This guy sounds like the unfortunate offspring of King Leopold II armed with a bad dictionary, an awkward command of English and a lethal dose of arrogance. Good lord, Peter, in what decade was this plantation owner operating his little empire?
When you understand the bigger picture...though it still may be hard for you to accept...yes I would forgive. I'm not a bible person...but years of open minded study has brought me to this understanding...'Seek ye first the kingdom of heaven...and all else will be given unto you.'
I don't expect any one to understand where I'm coming from...but that's okay...:-)
I think the 'thinking' behind much of the racist question in the Deep South may be in the environment one is brought up in ? It maybe shouldn''t be but it could well be an 'automatic reflex of the white community or at least some of it to be inherently racist. My first boss where I worked in this area was actually belgian and he made his fortune and bought a pecan nut plantation in Mississippi. He spent nine months of the year there and came back occasionally to make sure I wasn't doing too much 'damage' to his business ! When ever he referred to the black workers on his vast estate he would address them as 'n*****s. Each time he used the 'n' word I berated him and he just couldn't understand the fuss ! Apparently that word is the normal word to use in everyday conversation !
In my opinion, Brian, I don't think there is much to learn or any useful insight that would come out of probing this 21-year old reptile's so-called mind. It wouldn't matter if he were 12, 21 or 42. As much as I blame society, I wouldn't want to deflect any culpability from him or his breeders. Lots of people grow up in unspeakably horrible environments, and still don't turn into criminals. Have you ever seen the film "The Bad Seed"? Some humans are just born bad.
I wonder too in a way. He was heard making very racist comments as he shot the people. However, Dylann Roof's best friend is black and said he did not consider him racist. Charleston is in South Carolina where the civil war began and where Confederacy flags still fly and segregated communities are common. It is also one of the US states with the highest per capita ownership of firearms. The tension between African and Anglo-Saxon Americans is high, racial violence is the norm rather than the exception. People have said that this was a ticking bomb ready to go off. So what sparked it and how did that shape Roof's frame of mind before, during and since he went into that church, apparently spent a large part of the service with them, prayed and all else then indiscriminately shot people down? It is his mental state we know nothing about. At a guess a 21 year old is old enough to know what is what but still not have enough years to have developed the bitterness that makes hatred so deadly. Something is terribly, terribly wrong with this young man. That will probably come out in the open later, however it is a sick society that still views people of another skin colour that way. It is that society who shaped who he is and what he did. Thus, in my opinion, they share the culpability.
I would love to know what the killer thought when he heard the words of forgiveness ? I would imagine he was seething at the thought of his actions not causing the grief and hatred he was hoping or expecting maybe ?
I believe it is conditional. It is easy to say absolutely not and such things, but the fact remains that none of us were or are affected in any way by such things as the Sandy Hook elementary school shooting in 2012 or this one in Charleston, where families have expressed forgiveness in both instances. Some of them were there, their loved ones killed and hurt, some even saw it happen and yet they are expressing compassion. One of the barriers to understanding that is having the necessary insights into the very evangelical Christianity in the USA that has little like it in Europe.
Words are easily spoken or written, acting out what we say is something else. The 'eye for an eye' notion of retribution does not fit with the modern world. In law it is a non sequitur. Whoever unlawfully takes a life will face the consequences of his or her actions, even if it is what they consider justifiable 'revenge'. There is also only rhetorical high ground, but in legal terms we are all equal. Forgiveness does not exonerate those who have done such terrible things and also changes nothing at all under the circumstances of this most recent slaughter, they are still 'punished' or contained as appropriate to their crime. It is, thus, a personal thing and personally I think that no matter how strong the faith of those who forgive might be, it takes an awesome amount of courage and fortitude to do it.
However, we are not in that most terrible position to give the response we imagine we would give and I would hope none of us ever will be.