We are in the process of selling our holiday home - we are U.K. resident. The Notaire has asked us to submit/complete either form A1 or S1. However, HMRC in the U.K. do not understand why - we have also asked the Notaire but are awaiting the reply. Could anyone help with this query please?
Ask notaire on telephone, get immediate answer.
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Iâve just been through the process selling my SILâs holiday home, I dont know what these forms are but the notaire didnât ask for them (unless itâs a code for bank details)
This may help explain why >>
Get the S1 swiftly⊠to prove you have health cover in UKâŠ
This is to do with health insurance, not tax. Things changed on 14th Jan and if you can prove to the notaire that your health cover is provided by the United Kingdom then you are exempt from two of the social charges and just pay the 7.5% prélÚvement sociale.
However there is no agreed standard as to how you can prove it, and many people are struggling with this! And as a UK resident you are not eligible for an A1 or an S1 (unless you are a frontalier?). You need something from the DWP that shows you are part of the NHS, or local health trust perhaps.
I donât think they are given to people resident in the UK unless they are a frontalier.
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Fair enough⊠then the Seller obviously needs to explain this to the Notaire and ask what other proof will be acceptable⊠perhaps the EHIC (or whatever itâs now called).
Must be upsetting for a Seller to suddenly get an unexpected request like thisâŠ
Yes, pre-UK state retirement age I believe you csn only now get an S1 if you are a cross-border worker. There are only two types:
A âposted workerâ would live in UK but work in France.
A âfrontier workerâ would live in France but work in the UK.
The expected pattern to qualify is a normal weekly commuting pattern, but there is some flexibility on this. And during Covid there has been much more flexibility which currently, I think, extends to June.
Pre-retirement S1âs are issued by HMRC. Retirement S1âs are issued by DWP.
We provided an attestation sur lâhonneur which the notaire accepted.
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Jane - I was hoping youâd reply as you always seem to be very well-informed. Weâve rang HMRC again today and as before they cannot understand why these forms are needed. As we are non-resident and pay our NI in another country we have benefitted from this reduction in social tax (now 7.5%). I presume if we cannot prove that we are in another countryâs tax system etc. then we must pay the higher rate (17%). I am still waiting to hear back from the Notaire - over a week now. Iâm going to suggest if we can use our P60 end of year statement as it shows our tax and states our NI number. I will also ask if we can give a Sworn Statement. Thanks to everyone for their help - Iâll let you know how we go on!
Vero - do you not think the Notaire would be my first port of call? Also, although I do speak a very good level of French, speaking/understanding via the âphone is probably the most difficult way to ask anything. The Notaire speaks no English at all.
For this issue the notaire will take instruction from the fiscal representative too. Are they more approachable?
We have been battling a very similar issue since January, when sale of our second home was agreed. (In our case the problem was the fiscal rep âtho). However persistance has paid off and last night notaire finally agreed. So keep telling them the you are British residents , and the United Kingdom is your competent State. This is a model attestation, omit the bits you canât provide (no 4 could be P60). Or phone DWP overseas team and ask them
ATTESTATION SUR LâHONNEUR
(Articles L. 136-7 du code de la sĂ©curitĂ© sociale, lâarticle 16 de lâordonnance n° 96-50 du 24 janvier 1996 relative au remboursement de la dette sociale, et D. 136-1 du code de la sĂ©curitĂ© sociale)
Je soussigné
demeurant xxxxxxxxxxx
Demande Ă ĂȘtre dispensĂ© du prĂ©lĂšvement de la contribution sociale gĂ©nĂ©ralisĂ©e (CSG) prĂ©vue Ă lâarticle L. 136-7 du code de la sĂ©curitĂ© sociale et de la contribution au remboursement de la dette sociale (CRDS) prĂ©vue par lâarticle 16 de lâordonnance n° 96-50 du 24 janvier 1996 relative au remboursement de la dette sociale.
Jâatteste sur lâhonneur que, par application des dispositions du rĂšglement (CE) n° 883/2004 du Parlement europĂ©en et du Conseil du 29 avril 2004 sur la coordination des systĂšmes de sĂ©curitĂ© sociale, je relĂšve dâune lĂ©gislation soumise Ă ces dispositions, et que je ne suis pas Ă la charge dâun rĂ©gime obligatoire de sĂ©curitĂ© sociale français.
Je relĂšve, depuis le âŠ/âŠ/ (date dâouverture des droits), dans lâEtat de (prĂ©ciser lâEtat dâaffiliation ou adhĂ©sion au RĂ©gime commun de lâUnion europĂ©enne), de la caisse de protection sociale (prĂ©ciser lâorganisme dâaffiliation), en qualitĂ© de (rayer les mentions inutiles) : Travailleur salariĂ© / travailleur non-salariĂ© / titulaire dâune pension ou dâune rente (retraite, invaliditĂ©, accident du travail et maladie professionnelle) / autre (prĂ©ciser)
Jâatteste ĂȘtre en possession de lâune des piĂšces suivantes, en cours de validitĂ© Ă ce jour et mâengage Ă la produire Ă toute demande de lâadministration :
1° Le formulaire S1 « Inscription en vue de bĂ©nĂ©ficier de prestations de lâassurance maladie » dĂ©livrĂ© en application des rĂšglements europĂ©ens (CE) n° 883/04 et (CE) n° 987/09 et mentionnant lâaffiliation de la personne auprĂšs de lâun des Ătats membres de lâUnion europĂ©enne, de lâEspace Ă©conomique europĂ©en ou en Suisse ;
2° Le formulaire A1 « Certificat concernant la législation de sécurité sociale applicable au titulaire » délivré en application des rÚglements européens (CE) n° 883/04 et (CE) n° 987/09 ;
3° Une attestation dâaffiliation Ă©quivalente aux formulaires visĂ©s aux 1° et 2°, dĂ©livrĂ©e par lâinstitution auprĂšs de laquelle la personne est affiliĂ©e ;
4° Une attestation dâaffiliation au rĂ©gime commun de sĂ©curitĂ© sociale des institutions de lâUnion.
Je mâengage Ă signaler Ă lâĂ©tablissement payeur tout changement dans ma situation en matiĂšre de sĂ©curitĂ© sociale, dans le mois suivant celui-ci, et Ă rĂ©gulariser spontanĂ©ment, en tant que de besoin, ma situation en matiĂšre de prĂ©lĂšvements sociaux dans le cadre de ma dĂ©claration de revenus.
Je mâengage Ă©galement Ă tenir Ă la disposition de lâadministration toute piĂšce justificative visĂ©e ci-dessus, en cours de validitĂ© pour la pĂ©riode au titre de laquelle je demande Ă ĂȘtre dispensĂ© des contributions susmentionnĂ©es.
Jâai conscience que la prĂ©sente attestation est valable pour une durĂ©e maximale de trois ans et quâĂ lâissue de cette pĂ©riode, le maintien de la dispense des contributions susmentionnĂ©es est conditionnĂ© Ă la transmission dâune nouvelle attestation, toutes conditions de fond par ailleurs remplies.
Je certifie lâexactitude des informations portĂ©es sur ce document.
Jâai conscience que cette dĂ©claration mâengage et que toute fausse dĂ©claration, ou tout manquement Ă lâobligation de signaler un changement de situation, est susceptible de mâexposer, outre le paiement des impositions Ă©ludĂ©es, Ă des majorations fiscales et, le cas Ă©chĂ©ant, Ă des sanctions pĂ©nales.
Fait Ă xxx, le (Signature)
Jane,
Thank you so much for this. Re the date since which we have been part of the U.K. system - what do I put? I know it may seem a stupid question but is it literally since birth or since I started work and started paying contributions?
I will certainly try this although the Fiscal can be very temperamental re their decisions. We had a significant amount to offset but they have been very âpickyâ - eg we had a English project manager who sent us the invoices written in English and requesting payment in euros, stating his tax number etc but the Fiscal would not accept it as it was written in English. I thought the language of the EU was English? I supplied all invoices supported by the bank statements showing the cheques leaving the bank - one of the invoices was for a deposit paid upfront and they needed confirmation that it was linked/connected to the final bill even though the letterheads were the same and it stated it was for a deposit . The estate agents involved in the original sale were English (based in France) and issued our bill was in sterling. For this reason the Fiscal would not accept it.
It seems that we have done our neighbour a favour by not involving an estate agent but itâs ourselves who have taken the brunt - it would have been so much easier if an estate agent would have been involved - especially as we live in the U.K. and are limited to time spent in France now.
Once again, thank you - Iâll either contact the Notaire via mail today or wait until we go on Friday.
The fiscal reps have to justify their stupid fees somehow, so are renowned for being picky.
If you have always been UK residents then put 18th birthday date I guess.
It is a back covering exercise, so if you can deluge them with paper that should help them to justify their decsion
Jane,
I did say I would get back to you re any developments. We submitted the declaration re National Insurance statement - the Fiscal have told the Notaire they will only accept the forms A1 and S1 which the U.K. Tax Office have no knowledge of - in fact they have said that they think they are forms that France have literally put together themselves so the U.K. can do nothing.
France has a mind of itâs ownâŠâŠâŠthey were told that non-residents should not pay the Social Tax on any income here (ie on income from our gite) butâŠâŠFrance found a loophole and we had to pay it. Now, they say non-residents should not pay the higher rate of Social Tax on the sale of a second home butâŠâŠFrance has now found another way to get around this by demanding proof which is impossible to provide.
All I can say isâŠâŠwhen the funds from the sale go into our French account they will be leaving it within the hour. I would not trust any of my money to stay in France - I have no trust in them at all. How can this be a reliable and trustworthy system. The U.K. is not perfect but I truly cannot see this situation occurring there.
Thanks, itâs always good to get the next chapter!
But whoever you spoke to at HMRC was talking out of their backside. To put it politely!! Yes the fiscal rep is being dim, but so is HMRC.
A1 and S1âs exist!! In fact A1âs are issued by HMRC! But you are not eligible for one. You need an S1, which you might be able to persuade the DWP overseas team to give you.
This is a quote from this bit of UK govât guidance
Which states âYou may also need a UK-issued A1 certificate to show that you pay national insurance in the UK. You can get this from HMRC.â
You could also insist the notaire gives you an indemnity letter, saying that if at a later date they are proved wrong they will repay your moneyâŠ
I will tey to look up the higher authority you can appeal to.
You can try this on your team as well, which is from the French governmentâŠ
Be properly informed, take advice from people who actually know what they are talking about.
If you earn money in France you will probably pay tax on it in France.
Expect tax people to be picky. There are a lot of chancers about trying to weasel out of their obligations.
We donât do things the way they do in the UK.
If you speak French properly it is easier.
Good luck.
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Jane - many thanks for that - Iâll have a read later - just about to eat!
Vero - I am very aware that if I earn income in France I have to pay tax on it. This is not the issue here. I do not object to paying the tax but not when I should be paying less - in our case it makes a difference of nearly 15000⏠- which, to us, anyway, is a lot. I am also aware of the fact that France does things differently and I do speak a good level of French - probably far better than a lot of the English people who actually live here. I am also quite well-informed re declaring/paying tax on income here as I have done this for 18 years on our holiday home. Yes - our next step will be to use a qualified tax adviser or similar. I simply wanted to know if anyone else had encountered this as, at present, there are many second home owners selling.
In this instance Polly is correct, and this has been to the European courts and back. Non-residents europeans and British only pay the 7.5% prĂ©lĂšvement sociale, not CDS and CRDG. In January 2021 many notaires and fiscal representatives followed guidance that the exemption was only for europeans and imposed it on British people as no longer European. Many arguments later the French government agreed that the exemption did include British people and issued a statement to this effect earlier this year which I canât now find.
So sadly it is her notaire and fiscal representative who donât know what they are talking about. Not surprising really unless they deal with lots of British clients.
We had a major battle with our notaire this year, and finally managed to get him and fiscal representative to agree we were only subject to 7.5%. Took a lot of work!
Exactly, she needs people who actually know what they are talking about. The notaire obviously doesnât and the fisc or conseiller fiscal donât seem to either 
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