Good grief.... I agree with Gavin Williamson and the Telegraph

It’is because those areas still belonged to Germany (between 1870, after the Franco-Prussian war and the end of WWI) when the law on separation of church and state was passed. Same principle as Berwick upon Tweed still being at war with Portugal, or wherever is is.

Argh I’m an idiot - you explained that, I wrote before reading right to the end, v bad. Mea culpa.

1 Like

I’ll add that French politicians regularly toy with the idea of abrogating the Concordat in Alsace-Moselle (it costs €55 million to the French State in wages alone, + all the municipal or departmental subsidies) but the Right doesn’t want to upset its (mainly rightwing) “religious electorate” and the (mainly anticlerical) Left is hesitant as it’s controversial (Hollande talked about scrapping it in 2011 during the presidential campaign but it sparked a bit of an outcry and he dropped the idea. Mélenchon has always been firmly for the abolition, as you can imagine, and I see that the Socialist leader, OIivier Faure, is at it again).

Islam wasn’t part of the Concordat but this (“Par ailleurs, l’État et les collectivités locales pouvant financer d’autres cultes que les trois susnommés, certaines Églises luthériennes non reconnues sont traditionnellement soutenues.”) enables local government to finance other faiths, and since the mid-1990s, local municipalities have part-financed Islam, to varying degrees depending on the municipalities.

From the daily La Croix and website: https://www.la-croix.com/Religion/Actualite/En-Alsace-et-en-Moselle-l-islam-est-plus-aide-qu-ailleurs-NG-2011-04-04-586167

Dans le Haut-Rhin et le Bas-Rhin, ainsi qu’en Moselle, la loi de séparation des Églises et de l’État ne s’applique pas, car ces départements étaient allemands lors du vote de la loi de 1905.

Trois cultes - catholicisme, protestantisme, judaïsme - y restent soumis au « statut des cultes reconnus » issu du Concordat de 1801, qui prévalait partout en France avant l’annexion de l’Alsace-Moselle par l’Allemagne en 1870.

Les prêtres, pasteurs et rabbins, au nombre de 1 300 au total pour les trois départements, sont rémunérés par l’État. Ils sont payés entre 1 500 euros et 2 000 euros en milieu de carrière, soit un coût de 40 millions d’euros par an. Les programmes scolaires comprennent un enseignement religieux assuré par des professeurs choisis par les cultes et payés par le ministère de l’éducation nationale.

L’État, enfin, finance l’entretien des cathédrales, évêchés et grands séminaires. Les communes, elles, doivent prendre en charge l’hébergement des ministres du culte, financer l’entretien des églises, temples, synagogues et presbytères et participer au fonctionnement quotidien des paroisses (électricité, salaires d’organistes ) si celles-ci n’en ont pas les moyens.

1 Like

This Alsace-Moselle Concordat exception also means that municipalities can help finance the creation of religious buildings.

And as a matter of fact on this point John, you may have noticed that there’s been a debate raging on in France in the last week re the Strasbourg municipality’s €2.5 million subsidy to the Eyyub Sultan Mosque (which will be Europe’s largest mosque when completed apparently), but that’s not the cause as it’s perfectly legal then in Alsace and in keeping with the Strasbourg municipality financing 10% of the costs of any new religious building, unlike in the rest of France since 1905 of course (there is the odd exception to that rule though. For instance, the French state entirely financed the Grande Mosquée de Paris, the main mosque in Paris, in the 5th arrondissement, Central Paris. Don’t know if you’ve ever been, it’s a stunning place in the heart of the Latin, with Alhambra-style gardens, a 100-feet high minaret, a Muslim institute, a library etc. and a great café/restaurant with 2 lovely patios, mint tea only €2!).

The core beef in Strasbourg stems from the fact that the very controversial Turkish Millî Görüs Islamic Confederation is behind the project (the €2.5m grant is going into their coffers). This Turkish organisation is said to be very close to Erdogan (suspected of actively pursuing expansionist policies in Europe, in a sort of Neo-Ottomanist way), with links to ultranationalist groups such as the Grey Wolves (whose members of its French branch, the now dissolved Loups Gris, assaulted Armenians in the Lyon area a few months ago, in Décines in particular, aka “Little Armenia”, big Armenian community in that area and in France in general, by far the largest in Europe – Greater Paris, Lyon, Marseille, Valence).

Millî Görüs Islamic Confederation has refused to sign the “Charte des principes pour l’islam de France”, (to fight against separatism) and has also pushed for Turkey to withdraw from the Istanbul Convention (I’m limited to 2 links per post but Wiki has a page on that convention), said convention which Millî Görüs accuses of “destroying the family cell and encouraging homosexuality”.

There are all sorts of ramifications to this issue, further fuelled by the proximity of the 2022 elections and campaign, which, to all intents and purposes, has already started. Mairie vs Conseil général, newly-elected EELV/Green Maire Jeanne Barseghian (who incidently, as per her name, is of Armenian extraction) & municipal council (EELV who are threatening to sue 2 gvt ministers, Darmanin and Schiappa, for defamation) vs former municipality (Macron’s LREM) vs local opposition (LR etc.), strong suspicions of clientelism going on (on all sides, Greens and previous rightwing municipalities going back over ten years ago, as this big mosque project was launched in 2010) etc.

One small thing - could you add your full name to your details as per the site T&C, @Cat is quite particular about it, thanks.

1 Like

Sorry, I tried to register under my own name when I first registered, and I thought I had, but obviously not. I’ve just figured out how to do it so fingers crossed my real name should now appear.

3 Likes

Thank you for such a comprehensive explanation Frédéric, and your insight. I will read further.

You’re welcome. Here is a France24 article in English on the controversy in Strasbourg:

And a BFMTV feature, in French, natch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnArRktKExQ

Very comprehensive set of posts…lots of interesting information explaining the Laïcité and exceptions, thank-you.
Do you have a professional involvement or just a passing interest?

Both, I love history & sociohistory in general and as I teach French in an English secondary school (I’m French) I’ve taught those topics at A Level in England for 30 years (French society, secularism, post-French Revolution history - crucial to understand how laïcité came to be - etc.), I’ve also taught those things to adults (private tuition), to individuals, done informal talks on these subjects in Alliance Française-type groups etc.

I actually joined this forum intending to ask one quick question to do with my (British) wife and her residency rights should we move to France but I haven’t got round to asking it yet!

4 Likes

Well don’t just restrict yourself to that but join in…you would bring a new perspective to discussions as a French national livng in Boris land (where?).
It would give a balance to majority of posts made by Brits living in France.
Sometimes incorrect assumptions are innocently made !

Thanks for the welcome :grinning:

I live in (lovely) Northumberland.

3 Likes

You will be surrounded by spectacular history then Frédéric. We lived in Northumberland before we moved to France - my wife was born in South Tyneside but lived most of her life in Nothumberland - we lived together in Alnmouth (‘the prettiest village in England’) then right up in the hills between Glanton and Eglingham - just as lovely as our current home in Brittany, but much, much colder!

1 Like

It is a indeed a lovely county, steeped in history and relatively spacious, although South-East Northumberland is populous (the old industrial heartlands, a sort of extension of the Tyneside conurbation).

I’m more of an urban person à la base (I always lived in cities/urban areas or large towns) before moving up here, but I’ve settled well here. I miss urban life to a degree but I like the sense of space, the Northumberland national park, the lovely coastline and beaches (the Northumberland Coast is an AONB, an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty) etc.

There are very much “two Northumberlands” as you will know, many people aren’t necessarily aware of that. As with many other other things, the situation is very polarised in the county, with serious wealth cheek-by-jowl with abject poverty. The south (Tyne Valley), the west of the county and Morpeth are very affluent (by northern standards anyhow) but only 3 miles away from Morpeth you’ve got socioeconomically-deprived Bedlington, Bedlington Station, Blyth etc. I’ve worked in both communities and the contrast is most striking.

Prior to moving to Northumberland, I lived in Yorkshire for nearly 10 years (York, Leeds/Barnsley, Sheffield but mainly the latter), another fine area. I really liked Sheffield where I lived for 6 years but it’s much more crowded than here obvs. and my beloved sea is a bit far!

I loved the Peak District but it was way too crowded, for us weekend users anyway, but what a gorgeous area. Even 20-odd years ago, at weekends sometimes you couldn’t even park in places like Bakewell, Eyam or Hathersage, it is manic (understandably so as this national park is squeezed between Greater Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds-Barnsley and populous areas to the south). During the week it was fine. I used to take kids there with the school’s Outdoors teacher and it was mostly empty (very sadly, that position of Outdoors teacher was scrapped when austerity bigly kicked in and schools had to “prioritise” spending - with the academisation, the powers that be made damn sure that Headteachers (sometimes called “CEOs” now…) would be on £100-500K a year, Deputy Heads too etc. - yes, that’s half a million, for the big MATS, Multi- Academy Trusts -, thus depriving the many kids from poor backgrounds in our school the oppo to experience the countryside - and boy did they love it!).

Anyway, I’m off to the forest (Simonside) for a long walk, gorgeous weather today!

1 Like

Have been camping at Craster…of kipper fame when we lived near York.
Nice part of the world, beaches lovely but often cold and windy :partly_sunn
:tornado:

1 Like

It’s especially windy on the littoral but inland it’s OK I find.

Craster’s very nice, as is North Northumberland, I’ve done the Craster-Dunstanburgh Castle walk many times (and beyond, onto Embleton Bay), with my dog in particular or a walking group I used to be in. A few films and series have been shot there, Vera in particular but others, can’t remember which ones, my wife is more into things than I am. Anyway, last time I was there, part of the village was cordoned off as there was some filming going on.

Had a brilliant day out today in the Northumberland national park hills (Simonside Hills in this case, near Rothbury). The lockdown here in the UK was relaxed 2 days ago so people are now allowed to travel out of their “local” area and it has heaving today (it was never clear was “local” meant but I know s.o last week - one of my wife’s colleagues - who was fined £1,200 for driving from Amble to a Tesco in Newcastle (so, about 30 miles) the one in Kingston Park just off the A1. Anyway, as he parked the police pounced and fined him £200 for being “out of his local area” as they said that he should have used a more local supermarket, that was breach of the Covid rules as of 29th March. Instead of going home as the police told him to he actually did his shopping and when he came out, rebelote, the police fined him again for not having returned home when told to: £1,000, ouch…).

Anyway, today we were all allowed to flâner about where we wanted, and it was perfect up in Simonside: blue (hazy) skies, burbling brooks, warbling birds, strutting grouse, budding flowers, smiling ramblers - what more could you ask for?

I took a few pics, not sure if I’m allowed to post them on here.

Distinctly questionable, I’d have thought, given that “local” has never been defined - Amble to the Kingston Park Tesco is only about 21 miles as the crow flies and it might well be his regular shop as I doubt there’s a large store nearer his home. Time for a decent lawyer.

This lack of clarity in the UK regulations has been crticised before - similarly the ambiguity over whether people can or can’t protest - in view of which it sounds like another case of over-zealous and heavy-handed policing.
However, he would have driven close by a number of big supermarkets to get to Kingston Park.

1 Like

The figures sound wrong to me I have found information stating fines£ 200 on first offence doubling up on each further offence to £6400 Therefore I would have thought at the most this would be a fine of £600

I’m no Covid legal expert but I don’t think it’d be easy to win that one, even with a good brief, or maybe Nick Freeman, aka “Mr Loophole”, but he doesn’t come cheap I understand…

While legislation is often a matter of interpretation I think that in this case he’d be on a hiding to nothing, as he could indeed have used a more local supermarket, which was the thrust of the police’s argument here. I can think of at least 4 decent-sized supermarkets in Amble, Ashington or Alnwick, so much closer to him (1 big Asda in Ashington, 2 Morrisons - one of them in Amble -, 1 Sainburys), that’s why the police, to justify the fine, told him that he could have used much closer ones.

I wasn’t there obviously so I don’t know exactly what was said (I simply go on what my wife’s colleague told my wife at work, it happened to her husband actually, my mistake) and how things were said (always very important in these police situations how things are said, how you talk to them, I have personal experience of that - eg being very polite, non confrontational and apologetic can go a long way with the police IME in such situations!), but presumably they didn’t consider his reason to be there “reasonable”, as per the wording of the Covid regulations:

This means that if you commit an offence by failing to comply with the regulations without reasonable excuse, the appropriate authority will consider a suitable action.

He could, at a pinch, have tried to say that what he was after was not for sale in his local supermarkets, he could have said he wanted to buy a particular TV set or something that wasn’t for sale locally, that might just about have worked (and maybe he did try to go down that route, I don’t know, I wasn’t there; maybe he put forward that excuse and the police replied that this item he was after couldn’t be classed as urgent/essential/of prime necessity, or however the regulation pertaining to purchases is worded in the legislation, and that he could have waited until March 29th etc.).