Hi David..... I suspect that if we ever met-up over a glass of something refreshing we could yarn for days on end! Perhaps I'll try to get hold of you next time I'm out your way (Finisterre, yes?).
The client I alluded to, had a few ideas about modernising the ancient building, and whilst sympathetic to his desire to restore a small bit of French heritage, his initial ideas were, if you like, a "disneyfication too far" - turrets and gun ports. But having been approached respectfully (and in the native language) B de F were generally sympathetic to the notion od rescuing the old shell.
Did you know that the Isle of Wight has / had (apparently) the highest incidence of fire insurance claims in the UK? A lot of B & Bs and pubs seemed to catch fire a few years after being bought by incomers from the mainland.
Surveying is not just about looking at dodgy roof structures and measuring damp!
Contact Bâtiments de France ASAP! I am not surprised that workmen will not touch this situation, it sounds like it will require specialists in mediaeval structures, not to mention specialist scaffolders given that it's 16m high and rickety. I know a lot of people complain about B de F stopping them doing things, but if you get them on your side and work with them they can really be helpful and they can respond astonishingly quickly if a serious bit of patrimoine is at imminent risk.
If you have to patch up the wall in desperation just to stop it collapsing and save your house before a proper study can be done, use lime mortar in a screamingly different colour to the original so that it can be replaced easily. This should only be done as a last resort. Avoid concrete at all costs.
As other people have said, get yourself a lawyer to look at your deeds and clarify exactly where your responsibilities start and end.
Oh so true John Snell! Over the years I had a succession of clients from overseas who bought lovely listed buildings in London or the countryside. Shall we be polite and say they came from countries with few old buildings and had no feelings for them. Frequently they were from royal families or similar and used to getting what they wanted, stamping their feet etc. They had no idea that buildings could be protected, or of conservation area etc. Often their idea was to rip out all period detail, and they were furious when they could not get their way. I had one who bought a series of extremely important buildings and then put in planning applications to extend them and put them to all sorts of other uses. He eventually went bankrupt to the tune of about £1.5 billion having been leant money by a variety of banks who themselves went bust. He had a history of not paying bills wherever he went and hiding behind offshore companies registered in obscure places so even if you won a case against him you would never get the money. He bought one major Grade 1 building in the UK about 1998; it's still empty and letting in water. It is on the English Heritage buildings at risk register. He also had two chateaux in France one of which is being repossessed by a bank. The cost of buying an old building is very often just a start as one is buying a committment. If your survey was done by a proper professional it would seem that there may well be a good case against the person that did it. They will never admit liability as their insurance company bans them from so doing and everything has to be done by a loss adjuster. If you feel that the payout is not fair then you can take the matter to mediation or arbitration. Avoid litigation. And oh yes I have not got onto the subject of old buildings that mysteriously catch fire.
Surveyors owe a duty of care to report fully on the current condition and anticipated repairs a property needs, and should also go beyond the bricks and mortar (where appropriate) to highlight matters which affect the "property" in a wider sense;- third party rights, public liabilities, adjoining uses including trees on adjacent land, boundaries etc......
Negligence is proven when it can be shown (ahhh, there's the rub!) that on the date of inspection the defect should have been evident to someone "possessing the appropriate specialist knowledge"....implying that a lay person is not expected to self-determine the matter. Regrettably there are a few QBE ("qualified by experience") types- often semi-retired construction workers, describing themselves as "surveyors".
It is not a matter of "good faith" - it is a matter of professional competence.
The Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors makes it compulsory for members to carry full and appropriate Professional Indemnity insurance; one can be struck off fo failure to comply.
I recently advised a client in relation to a property which had been integrated into the ancient walls of an historic town; the folk at Batiment de France were extremely helpful and the notaire was well-infomed on an owners' liabilities to maintain, repair and to contribute towards the costs of maintaining the structural components owned in common. This information informs the 'value' of the property; it may be lovely, but it is expensive to maintain..... a discussion for another day.
It should be clearly understood that properties can be liabilities as well as assets, and this aspect may not be fully understood by sales agents working on commission who lack the necessary discriminatory powers / impartiality. Several clients have told me that the estate agent tried to dissuade them from instructing a survey..... it is a matter of conjecture as to their motivation!
Not something that would happen in the UK now but unfortunate as it may be I think many French would just let it collapse. The countryside round us in Finistere is littered with wrecks. I went to a totally ruined chateau recently, no roof etc, where the family was living in an adjacent house. Maybe take the roof off your barn, use the timbers as fire wood and make an interesting walled garden within. Reduce the walls to about 2m. You may be able to sell the stone. Not the best but nothing new. If the building is not a monument classe why not? Who waved your claim away BTW- the surveyor or the insurance company? Maybe look into a claim against the surveyor and maybe it would have to be dealt with by a mediator? It's worth a try!
Thanks Sarah , I was not aware of that ,so I will definitely try and find out
Thanks . I will contact him . At least he may be able to point me in the right direction .
I am so sorry to hear that Katherine . Often French dreams turn into nightmares ! I almost had a heart attack when I saw 70-000 euros . I did not have a survey which I now regret . I am hoping that the bill will not be to horrendous but would also sell if it were any where in the region of 70-000 . Thanks for your advise.
Hi Katherine
The surveyor should have put in a written report and if what has gone wrong wasn't in there then he is I think liable for Prof Neg. Having said that I am not a lawyer but surely worth a consultation with one for a 100 Euros or so.
In any event the surveyor I would have thought would have Prof Neg insurance so he is not directly liable.
I am not saying it will work, everyone gets shifty when their money is at risk but I think worth a pop. At 70K Euros, surely worth the effort and relatively trivial cost.
Part of the curtain wall of the chateau in Pontivy did indeed collapse. The chateau is owned by Pontivy town council ,having purchased it for one euro from the Rohan family . There is now a public appeal for cash and building stone to start the repair work .
I wish you well with your wall repair. You are obviously between the devil and the deep blue sea.
Our surveyor missed something huge on our property and as a result we have a 92 sq metre ancient (17th century) attached barn that is in danger of collapsing. The devis to repair it are enormous (€70,000) and we cannot afford it. Even ANAH grants are 50% tops so the other half is still too much. We tried to claim professional negligence with the surveyor and were waved away - he claims he told us all there was to know about the property in good faith. We now will likely have to sell…the value is obviously hugely diminished and we will never recover anywhere close to our purchase price. Our life in France is now extremely difficult and our hearts are broken because we love our house and France.
I don’t mean to hijack your thread, Lisa, but Peter’s advice about pursuing the surveyor, if that’s one of your options, may not work.
I know the heartache and wish you good luck in getting it sorted out.
Peter Kellow is a British architect in Toulouse- also qualified in France
Peter Kellow Architecture
50 rue de la Marquette, 31700 Beauzelle,
Toulouse Metropole , FRANCE
Email peterkellow@peterkellowarchitecture.com
www.peterkellowarchitecture.com
A big section of the ramparts in Pontivy collapsed a couple of years ago and are still awaiting repair. There were no shared ownership issue there. Not sure about France but if it is a shared or party wall in the UK very set procedures apply. You need to get on with things.
I definitely do not think you are paranoid , Peter. One needs to have ones wits about them in France . I am wondering of the cost and this is beginning to scare me . I knew at some stage the wall would need doing but I think I could be on a sticky wicket !
I am going to take advise about getting an architect . I long for a bit of peace !
If it's a classified monument then you'll need to go through Batîment de France - the national heritage organisation - as you may be required to follow certain regulations. Make sure you check up on this as you'll need to fill out forms and probably have to meet with your prefecture's Batîment de France architect.
There are grants available to help towards repairing/renovating old structures - your commune, ANAH are two places to start.
Lisa just read this reply by you.
First I think it qualifies as an "ancient monument" for which I am sure there are grants, which of course the mairie knows better than you.
Check with your Notaire on your responsibilities and liabilities as they should have been set out in your property purchase documents. If you used a Notaire in the village, then get a new one and a lawyer.
Lisa, I am no expert on this stuff, my thoughts are just from experience.
No I have idea as to costs.
Talk to your insurer about liability and they might be able to offer you advice on local professionals who could help you. My first lot here were a bunch of incompetents but I gradually weeded them out.
A 12C wall will need careful restoration. You may need a specialist contractor capable of working with "old style" materials for example. My instinct tells me that the "plan" is to dump the as much as they can of the responsibility and cost on to you, not least as from what you say, you cannot do the work required in isolation as you are only responsible for a part of the wall.
If you do your bit they can then claim "you have made their bit worse and you must pay for that as well!", so you will need to work with the other parties, see what estimates they have got.
Has your "joint owner" received a similar letter and what is he/she doing about it?
You really do need professional advice from an architect and maybe even a lawyer to protect your interests and bank account.
I advise an architect as they will know the rules and regs, but avoid someone too local as they may not be entirely on your side!
And, OK I am a paranoid old fool, but my suspicions are aroused.
You don't say how good your French is. Mine is tolerable spoken as I know what I am trying to say but my hearing and ancient brain is not too good understanding high speed French. I now make sure that all my professionals speak good English, in fact most are fully bilingual, unless I am on very sure ground.
I will do . It's part of the last remaining fortified walls of the village from the 12 century . The house one exterior wall is formed by this wall and just below this is the road . The wall itself is about 16 m high . So the question is .. is the wall mine or is it a common wall with the mairie ?
Thanks Peter . Is 3 party insurance ,civil liability insurance ? I would agree with the hidden agenda of the Mairie . It certainly has shocked me ,how things work in our village . Nothing but hatred for foreigners and self enrichment exists here . I am going to take your advise regards an Architect as the wall is of the 12th century era and is somewhat complicated as my house forms but a small part of it . I have lived in Monieux , Vaucluse for 5 years and we did not have a survey done ...do you have any idea of what the going rate per sqm would be ?
Brings me to tears ,the frustration of it all . It would not be so bad if the staff working in the Mairie were a little more helpful but it is truly dreadful ! I also have a neighbor who dislikes us (Just because were English )and intimidates each workman that comes to quote . Subsequently we never hear from them again !
Not sure why I bother to persevere but giving up is not an option to me !
Hi
I wouldn't assume the mairie is right - they almost always have an agenda which everyone knows about save you of course.
Make bloody sure you are insured against any 3rd party liability.
If it was me, I would find a decent English speaking architect and get a professional opinion as to the cause of the problem and the possible solutions and the inevitable large cost.
The architect should know if there are subsidies, tax relief available etc. and of course there may be restrictions on what you can do or not do, type of material etc, degree of urgency, public protection etc.
You don't say how long you have lived there, but presumably you had a survey made and if the surveyor failed to notice or report the issue, then you have a claim against him/her for professional negligence.
It is all very aggravating, time consuming and expensive and you have my sympathies.
If the wall is just held together with mud as the old walls often were then netting is only a very short term solution. There was a barn along the road from us which was collapsing so they removed the rest of the roof which was probably not sensible, and then covered the walls with netting. One good storm of rain and the walls started collapsing.
What does the wall belong to? How high is it? Is it part of your house, or a barn? Has it got a roof on it and is the roof the cause of the problem i.e. pushing the wall outwards? I presume it is adjacent to the road. Walls are usually either rebuilt, tied with iron bars, buttressed (may be too close to the road) or have an extension built against them as additional room and support in one. Can you put a photo with your message?