How long can I stay without becoming tax resident

Apologies if this a stupid question. I’m planning to spend a lot more time France, and I understand you can stay up to 183 days in any calendar year, without having to register as a tax resident (I will be working remotely for a UK company). Does this mean I could be there from now until end of this year, and then next year until end of June (so nearly a full year), and still be within the ‘183 days in a calendar year’ rule? Therefore maintaining UK tax residency? I realise I would need to register as a resident before the end of December for brexit reasons. Thanks for any help!

Hello Dave and welcome to the forum

Please can you amend your registration to give Full Name… ie First Name and Last Name as per our t&c’s

if you’re not sure how to do that… simply give Full Name here on this thread and I’ll amend things for you

cheeers

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No. Unless you become a full french resident before 31/12/20 you will be restricted to spending no more than 90 days in every 180 in the Schengen area. To stay longer you will need a visa, and you would be unlikely to get a visa that allows you to work unless your employer sorts out posting you to france.

People always look at the UK rules but you need to look at the FRENCH rules. And labour laws here are strict. There are some exceptions but generally if you are physically in france when you are working you are a french worker and have to pay tax and social charges here.

Brexit has changed everything.

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“People always look at the UK rules but you need to look at the FRENCH rules. And labour laws here are strict. There are some exceptions but generally if you are physically in france when you are working you are a french worker and have to pay tax and social charges here.”
Agreed but with a plus if Dave is running his own Ltd.
From my own digging (when I used to be employed by my own company contracted in turn to a French company) it was about bums on seats/where does the work get done/& main place of residence - when I was UK resident employed by my UK company it was UK tax. When I moved to France not only was I personally bound to be French tax resident but in addition my UK company would have been liable for French contributions and they are high for employers.
I didn’t waste any time switching to become a French (PAYE type) employee of the French company (customer then employer) - much simpler.

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Thanks Jane - According to the French govt - https://brexit.gouv.fr/sites/brexit/accueil/vous-etes-britannique-en/droit-au-sejour-en.html - latest guidance is that British people already in France at the end of the brexit transition period will have quite a while to apply for this residency (until July 1 2021) - meaning same rights as EU citizens until then unless I’m mistaken?

Maybe some additional complexities around working, but I have already spent plenty of time over the years working for my UK company from a laptop somewhere in Europe. I assumed that with ‘residency’ (which the UK passport allows until July next year by the looks of it), I’d be fine working remotely? Obviously applying for a French job would be different

Please see also the following chain

Thanks that’s useful - I was definitely under the impression that this only mattered once you qualified as a French tax resident, as in, spend more than 183 days a year there. I understood that simple residency is a different legal construct, meaning you could work in France (or any EU country) remotely for a UK employer for up to 6 months a year, provided you had a residency permit. Without the residency permit it would be 90 in 180 days

@DaveCh

Please give us your full name: First Name and Last Name without further delay.

cheers

Hi Stella - thanks for the welcome, looks like a very useful forum! Can’t find the full name requirement in the Ts &Cs though? Can you provide a link? Generally not a good idea asking for this on a non-secured public forum (coming from 20 years working in tech)

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On the registration page… where it asks what your name is… :wink: :thinking:

cheers

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According to the UK Govt, https://www.gov.uk/guidance/living-in-france#working-and-studying-in-france - as long as you remain resident at the point the transition period ends (meaning applying for it here by July 2021 https://brexit.gouv.fr/sites/brexit/accueil/vous-etes-britannique-en/droit-au-sejour-en.html) you will continue to have the right to work. Meaning remote workers or ‘digital nomads’ will be able to stay up to 183 days a year living/working remotely in france. If this was illegal, digital nomads would not exist. Short of banning laptops at the airport this would be rather unenforceable regardless. Or am I missing something?

So back to the original question, if 183 days in a calendar year are allowed, could you do July-Dec in one year, and Jan - June the next year, without going over the limit?

I am not sure that that digital nomads DO exist in France… :roll_eyes: :thinking:

France is very hot on this sort of “sitting on the fence” attitude…

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Many many pages have been written on this subject.The fact remains that the French Labour Code is not accommodating to digital nomads. France puts a big focus on social protection and is anti precarity, anti gig economy, anti unconventional working practices in most forms.
French law states plainly that visitors to France do not have the right to work during their stay. As a UK resident you would be in France as a visitor.
Tcn visitors are restricted to visits of 90 days in a rolling 180 day period. A stay of 180 days is not possible.
You can ignore this if you like, but be clear what the rules are and do not invent new ones to suit yourself.
Your references to applying for residency are confusing. If you are a Brit residing in the uk you do not need to apply for residency there, and as a uk resident visiting France there is no point trying to apply for residency in France. Visitors are not the same as resident and do not have the ssme rights.

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Thanks Geoffrey. Currently the UK is still treated as part of the EU until the transition period ends (so UK residents can live/work there with no restrictions until then). At that point (see the link I posted), UK citizens in france will need to have applied for French residency (but it appears they have until July 2021 to do so). This is separate to ‘tax residency’ and allows you to stay up to 183 days a year without becoming tax resident (as far as I am aware).

the “then” you talk about is 31 December 2020 and Brits Resident in France by that date have until July 2021 to apply for their CdS… (although not sure about the “no restrictions” when it comes to folk working here at the moment … France always wants its money)

Brits arriving in France after 31 December 2020… have a different path to follow…

Two points.
It is not correct that UK residints can live/wok in France with no restrictions. Freedom of movement is subject to a number of conditions. An EU citizen wishing to live/work in another EU state must either be a posted worker with the correct paperwork confirming he remains covered by his home country’ social secutity system, or he must register with and contribute to his host country’s social security system. Read the eu fom directive.
Secondly I have no idea what you mean about residency. Either you live in France permanently or you don’t. If you do, you need to have applied for your permit by next July. If you don’t, it is no use popping over as a visitor for a few months and trying to get a residence permit. I think you must have misunderstood something if you think there is an alternative kind of residency permit for Brits who do not actually live in France.

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@Go4words - from the people I have talked to, there are a lot that spend up to 6 months in France, then go back to the UK in order to maintain UK tax residency. They can still have a French residence permit (and will be required to after the brexit transition, otherwise maximum as a ‘visitor’ would be 90 days)

You are looking at the rules from a UK perspective as opposed to from a French perspective, as Jane has already said. The 183 days rule is a test for people residing in the UK not in France. Have a read of this. It should help. It is in French and English.
https://www.impots.gouv.fr/portail/resident-de-france-residents-france
Izzy x