I would just like to point out that the British people did not vote for Boris as pm. He was voted in by party members (who are generally of ‘a certain age’ and thus thankfully will not be around for much longer).
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I find it interesting Vero that you seem to confuse a desire to see reform within a multi-national, over-arching, bureaucratic, cumbersome organisation with a dislike of “your” country. Both my friends find there is much to admire within France and have no intention of leaving. But they are not saying that everything in the garden is rosy. Remember, there are those in France who would like to see Frexit. Are you saying that the gravy train of the EU is to be applauded? That there is no scope for improvement?
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But the vote for her party was up by 50% whereas the Conservatives was up by just 2%.
Just about every poll over last 3 years has indicated that there is a majority for remain. It is, fairly close but uniformly remain wins in 99% of the polls.
No time to put together a long reply I’m afraid Robert but please pause to reflect on the contrast between images of Leavers “celebrating” by burning the EU flag with the warm feelings expressed by the EU politicians on Friday night.
Then tell me with a straight face that none of those labels apply.
I know there are reasonable Leavers but there is much guilt by association.
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That would presuppose that:
- I had had the opportunity to participate in any of the votes, which I did not ;
- the referendum was legitimately exercised which, according to my understanding of the court decision, it was not - had it been legally binding, it would have been declared illegally run.
I can accept it as this - an illegally run, poorly executed attempt at avoiding the splitting up of a political party along warring internal factions by dreaming up an attempt at direct representation with regard to a decision that should never have been put to the people - if anything, the subsequent general elections showed how bad an idea it was. I certainly will never accept it for the impact it has had on my life.
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The independent’s Tom Peck who was in Parliament Square Friday night…
Believe me Mr Hodge I do read what you write and will continue to comment when I find flaws in your reasoning or believe you come out with outrageous or bizarre statements. I also note that you still haven’t come up with an EU rule imposed by that foreign entity (sic) that has directly affected your quality of life. You still seem to ignore the fact that the British government has never acted upon its ability to use its sovereign powers within the EU framework, for example re immigration, effectively. It’s so much easier to blame the EU. Economic strength IS of great importance as without that no Government can protect the quality of life and working standards of its population.
You do however explain why you are happy to be seen as a dinosaur but I for one will never accept your viewpoint.
You really don’t seem to understand how you project your pride and admiration for those like Mr Farrage who in my mind are no more than rabble rousers telling the masses what they want to hear even if what they want to hear makes no logical sense. Mr a Johnson is an expert at the art. It is also an approach I recognise from someone who used the tactic effectively in the 1930 s. However, as you come over as one who holds such a right wing position perhaps that’s not too surprising.
I will repeat the facet I find the hardest to understand; if you were voicing your opinion from deep in the English shires it might be easier to understand but from someone who has admitted to taking advantage of FoM, even if I’m not sure that you appreciate how much you have actually gained from that, to be so happy to deny others what you have enjoyed is both unbelievable and unacceptable.
Your description of the EU matches my vision of Westminster. I would be interested to hear how your friends how leaving the EU can be seen as acceptable in economic and welfare terms. If they are really so concerned about the organisation that has so much effect on their country of residence wouldn’t they have preferred the country governed by their preferred political party to have used its influential position at the heart of that same organisation to effect change?
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Robert, did you read Mr Macron’s letter?
In it he says
" We must understand the reasons for it and learn lessons from it. The rejection of a Europe which political leaders, in the UK and elsewhere, have too often blamed for all evils, to avoid having to deal with their own failures – that’s one reason. Another is, let’s acknowledge this, the consequence of a Europe seen as not effective enough, not protective enough, distant from the realities of daily life."
Everyone knows that the perception of “the ability to govern itself by its own parliament” is one of the reasons the UK voted to leave Brexit. However, most people in Europe and many Brits believe, as Macron said, that this an argument that can’t be substantiated; the perception has come about as a result of political leaders blaming the EU for for all evils to avoid having to deal with their own failures.
Repeating an argument that we’ve all heard hundreds of times and know off by heart, isn’t going to convince us that it’s true. If you want to do that, you need to offer some solid illustrations of how, specifically, membership of the EU has hindered the UK government in ruling effectively.
And please bear in mind too that a small country cannot operate without treaties, governments have to make international agreements, and those agreements will inevitably bring certain obligations and constraints. The UK will no longer be bound by its agreement with the EU but it may make agreements with China, India, the US; all of those will involve promises and compromises, maybe accepting free movement of citizens from those countries, maybe imposing standards or removing standards. That’s a big part of the art of good government -entering into good agreements and successfully integrating the terms of those agreements with domestic needs. If governments had free rein to govern their country exactly as they liked with no regard to international relations and obligations, government would be easy. But no government can, they are all players on a global stage. You could say that absolute sovereignty is impossible.
Examples and illustrations of gratuitous EU interference in UK government, please?
[quote=“cat, post:41, topic:28767”] “…generally of a certain age and will thankfully not be around for much longer…”
[/quote]
Oo, er, missus… 
I suspect the tricky thing about the sovereignty issue is that it’s not really about sovereignty.
When leavers complain that so-many-hundreds-of-laws are made by the EU, that in itself is objectionable to them - they don’t really take in to account that almost all of these ‘laws’ are in fact piddly little trade regulations, not really about whether people can eat bananas as bendy as they like, but about the density of bananas in import containers - many of which regulations will simply be replaced by similar regulations by even more remote bodies like the WTO.
Almost all the laws that are really important to most people - the criminal law, elections and democracy, citizen’s rights and freedoms, etc - have always been within the ‘sovereignty’ of individual countries, whether in the EU or out.
So it’s a classic dialogue de sourds: for remainers what matters about the pooling of sovereignty is the real difference it makes in most people’s life - almost none - so it’s really nothing important when set against the economic and other advantages of EU membership; for leavers though it’s an issue of principle - so to them it literally doesn’t matter that they can’t name a particular regulation that disrupts their life - and they make a principled stand not really on the piddly little trade regulations, or any real difference they make, but on the symbolic difference they feel is implied.
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Jeez and i thought i had the bonus on that one. Ah well i will have to share top spot.
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How very English! “After you, Robert dear boy! No, after you, Roger!” 
I’m afraid the Electoral Commission’s verdict made Alice In Wonderland look like a documentary. Pure Dodgsonian logic or its opposite.
Well said.
Are people really still in denial about this.
Remainer or Leaver, this has now happened and it deserves to be given a chance.
As a remain voter, I feel more confident about this now and although for Expats it will be much more difficult, for Britain this may turn out better than we thought. I am hopeful.
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Based on what evidence?
Johnson is already heading for no deal and trying to blame the EU even before the negotiations have got out of the starting gate.
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Ireland unification is inevitable due to the Catholic population in N. Ireland.
Scotland could have a tough time though outside the UK as its deficit is 7 times (proportionately) that of the UK as a whole, so it wouldn’t meet any of the economic criteria of the EU - or if they did concede to its entry, then they would presumably impose draconian conditions on it a la Greece. Not very free I fear.
No evidence especially (although there is apparently a leaked document from Nissan saying that if there are tariffs between UK and Europe it will close its factories in France and Spain and centralise all in UK!!).
It is not a case of knowing anything, but we have to have some faith and belief. It seems wrong to assume everything will be a disaster.
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Not sure about inevitable - but, increasingly likely.
Maybe not