Frankly I’m surprised you’re still breathing!
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I think it is extremely sad that the referendum has resulted in the UK being now more sharply divided than at any time in my lifetime - perhaps for centuries. The bitterness that has been caused by this is huge and not likely to go away soon. It has also undermined trust in our institutions of government. The referendum had unclear constitutional status which has undermined parliament. The manner in which the campaign was conducted with much “information” that has since proved untrue has diminished trust in the democratic process. The fact that the government still will not tell the public what their impact studies show shows that the politicians do not trust the public any more than it now trusts them. Whatever the final outcome the referendum and its sequel have done deep damage to all levels of our society from the family to the state.
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You are absolutely right David.
We have been hijacked by the extreme right of the Conservative party.
I always voted Tory, but no more!
Party Politics have become the be all and all instead of the good of the country and I really cannot see how a Referendum which was based on blatant lies can be allowed to continue.
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Angela, it is well understood that the EU has many problems, but leaving will not help.
Europe needs to be together to keep the peace, but it seems that many Europhobes have forgotten that.
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Thanks, Jane. One thing leads to another. One used to think that one could look to the Conservative Party for a reasonably honourable way of conducting politics at least, but the standards of public life are deteriorating rather generally. Regarding your reply to Angela - well, the EU is bound to have problems and it is a near miracle that it has come as far as it has given the diversity across the continent. It did not get the Nobel Peace Prize for nothing. The UK has tended to see it purely as an economic arrangement but really it is about peace, first and foremost. Half the countries in Europe that are not in the EU have had war on their own soil since the EU was formed and if it had not been formed that might well have been the fate of the rest of us. I sincerely hope it prospers and that we do not fall to tearing each other to pieces again as has happened so often in history. This must be the longest period in history that Germany, France, Spain and Italy have been without war and the UK has always inevitably been drawn in, often making matters worse. I fear those who want peace and prosperity are now pursuing a rearguard action against the nationalists and xenophobes who do not realise what they are throwing away.
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What are you waiting for then? There are no chains on people leaving France to go back to the UK. I don’t understand this, as it seems as if you stay under duress, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU or even France.
If you find it so bad, then go home - it’s as simple as that, why would you want to wait for another referendum?
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I agree with you, but self-evidently the majority of Brits seem to think differently.
My own feelings have been clear from the outset, and that is I believe Europe and Britain will be better off away from each other. They are too incompatible in too many ways, and the Brexit ‘deal’ if one comes about will be pointless as whichever way it falls at least half the population will be dissatisfied. What sort of partners would this make Britain?
The saddest part has been reading the Letters columns where so much bile and hatred has been stirred up on all sides in the UK, not all of it aimed at the EU either, but against themselves.
The EU really doesn’t need this problem, Britain has made a decision and will have to live with it whichever way it falls. I DO beleieve though that Britain has lost a lot through it all - notably its long-term reputation for tolerance, and even-handedness, and not least good humour.
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Norman I don’t know if your reply was meant for me. If so I’m very confused! I don’t have any issues as I love both places equally. I’m lucky enough to have a beautiful home in Dorset and a beautiful home in France, where I grew up. Some of my grandchildren have dual nationality. This still doesn’t stop me thinking that Brexit will be good for Britain, I believe I’m entitled to an opinion as a UK resident and tax payer. Vive la difference!
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Yes Angela, my reply was meant for you as you specifically said you would vote for Brexit in the event of another Referendum. Brexit is explicitly and emphatically anti-Europe and in my view from much following of the issue - anti-European and specifically anti-Germany and anti-France.
By fairly logical association this indicates at least that you must share a part of this view?
You are most certainly at liberty to express your view, and I wouldn’t have it any other way, but you must also be prepared for others to question it - notably in an open forum.
Having the ‘best of both worlds’ also reflects another branch of Brexit in my view. You presumably want to continue this happy arrangement? Then why would you vote again for Brexit which could and probably will, change that status?
Before anyone accuses me of double standards by having acquired French Nationality and currently at least having Dual Nationality, let me assure you that the moment Brexit takes effect as wished by a still, pretty solid majority in Britain I will drop the British part immediately.
I know where I want to belong, and it is not as part of the old jingoistic Britain I grew up in.
However as I have previously noted,I also agree that both Britain and Europe are better apart, as Britain has only ever been a semi-partner at best, and a cantankerous one to boot.
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Well, I don’t think it is evident that the majority in UK do want Brexit. A large number did not vote and opinion, in so far as it has moved at all, seems to have moved toward Remain since. A referendum tomorrow might well produce a reversal. I do agree that this affair has had a very unfortunate effect upon the UK’s reputation and has whipped up more bitter division within the country than anything in living memory, division that will now not go away for a long time whatever the outcome. As you imply, the hatred between the camps is actually greater than any criticism of the EU. I can also see some validity in your idea of incompatibility, but this was gradually eroding, which is why so many young people favour Remain. It takes time for attitudes to change. I also see some validity in your argument that Europe does not need the problems caused by UK’s schizophrenic breakdown. However, I still feel that overall Brexit is somewhat bad for the EU and very bad for Britain and, above all, I lament the attitudes that are driving it forward. Those who claim to represent the will of the people are very reluctant to find out what the people actually think now that some of the consequences are becoming apparent.
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There were many different reasons people voted Brexit - here’s a selection.
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Change - if you’re on a low income or found it hard to cope in the last 10 years of “austerity” why would you vote for the status quo?
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Immigration - Nigel said we’ll be invaded by Turkish if we stay in the EU
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Sovereignty - we want power given back to our courts and judges, unless of course they point our Brexit needs to be approved by parliament in which case we had enough of exprts haven’t we?
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£350m for the NHS
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We just love Michael Gove and Boris Johnson and want them to be PM
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We want to give the govenment a bloody nose
The only question on referendum was “do we leave the EU” and not what form that should take.
Imagine if it had been 52% remain and 48% leave and David Cameron decided to go for a HARD REMAIN!!! with ditching the pound and creating a Euro Superstate whilst telling the 48% to just shut up and get behind the country or else they’re undemocratic…
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That is part of the problem, at the very least the referendum should have covered whether we should seek to stay in the EEA and we would not be in nearly as much of a mess as currently.
Even without the “Hard Remain” option Farage said he would very much consider 52-48 in favour of remain “unfinished business” so it is extremely hypocritical for the leave voters to say the rest of us must “shut up and ‘get behind’ the country”.
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Hi David, I suppose it depends on which (prejudiced?) poll one reads, doesn’t it? Let’s just agree that for the moment at least I can’t see a sufficiently powerful pull towards either a new referendum or election, so little will change. Then again we have Angela’s comment that she would vote ‘Leave’ now in a second referendum, so how far is that entrenched now in the British psyche?
My own family there voted ‘leave’ following what I saw as a diet of pap and outright lies orchestrated by Rupert Murdoch - and I see no signs of that having diminished in any way. As is fairly widely reported Murdoch has a personal vendetta against Europe because ‘when he calls the British Government everybody jumps, but when he calls Brussels, nobody pays him any attention’.
The power of media barons should not be underestimated, and let’s be honest about it, his stable of media outlets carrying his message is far greater than any opposition, so quite where that leaves the Remainer camp seems pretty obvious in isolation.
I knew Murdoch in Australia and before he became the power he is today, and know that he is almost pathologically single-minded, and very hard, if not impossible to move from his set position, so that won’t change - short of his death.
Yes, again it is the young people of Britain who will face the restraints. Most oldies like me are way past our working age, but have enjoyed the massive benefits that EU Membership provided in freedom of movement. It does not close all doors to the young but just makes it that more difficult.
I think we also must agree that there IS xenophobia in Britain, but it has always been there, largely through the Empirical History of the country. I grew up in the last days of Empire and was just as imbued with this as anybody, and I was just a lower working class oik.
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Robert, I think you are being over-generous, and I am reminded of the old expression ‘All Politics is Personal’.
For example should an expatriate Pensioner vote for change which could possibly remove their pension be regarded as a noble-minded person or just as a Twit?
Just in case you think this is fatuous and unrealistic, I suggest you read the bleatings of a certain Iain Duncan-Smith who is one of the leading Brexiteers expounding this point of view.
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Thanks, Norman. I think we understand the situation rather similarly. You are opting to become French? I have to think about what is the best thing to do. I live mostly in France but my pension is in UK and I’m not that settled - I travel a great deal. At the moment I’m holding fire to see how it pans out, as it is rather unclear what the rules of the game are going to be. Sentimentally, I feel increasingly alienated from the attitude that has the upper hand in UK now but do not feel strongly attached to anywhere else so am becoming emotionally stateless which is not so comfortable.
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Hi David, I am not thinking of becoming French, I HAVE become French - as at 29th April this year. This may seem an odd thing to do at my age, but you made the point of ‘emotionally attached’ which just about covers it. My part-pension also comes from the UK and I have to say that whilst Brexit was not the totality of my thinking - I had applied a year or so before this became an issue, it was definitely a wake-up call about my status with the bile being aimed (even then) from Farage et al towards Europe.
Unlike others possibly I have far greater faith in the French not abandoning their citizens financially than I do with the current crop in the UK - with Iain Duncan-Smith to the fore, someone I feel is an extremely unpleasant person, but not unique in the world as lost my Australian pension through just such a creature there.
For the moment at least if you have lived here for more than five years you can apply and hold Dual Nationality. Personally. I regard that as a bit of insurance against the increasingly belligerent attitude of many in the UK. As far as I can see there is no downside to this at all.
However and above all, I genuinely love France to bits, with all its quirkiness and bureaucracy. It IS my country now, and I don’t have a single reservation about taking my decison.
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Sorry Norman but I’m a bit lost here as to exactly what the point is that you have in relation to Mr Duncan-Smith.
Robert, Ian Duncan Smith has removed the Winter Fuel Payment from pensioners here in France because he fiddled the weather data to say that France was a warm country in the winter.
He is a Europhobe and although he is no longer at the DWP, he is someone to very wary of.
I could well imagine that he would be in favour of stopping pensioners living in France from receiving the pension updates to which they are lawfully entitled.
Hi Jane,
Yes, I’m aware of the WFP issue which is indeed a disgrace. However I had rather thought that Norman was referencing something to do with Brexit, which of course the WFP issue is not.
Happily the continued inflation upgrading of the State Pension has already been agreed between the UK and the EU regardless of what Mr Duncan-Smith’s view might be.
I’ve been sat here now since June last year, waiting for someone to explain how brexit will be good for Britain or how do they expect Britain to make brexit a success or even what they expect the benefits of brexit to be. I’ve asked quite a few brexitaires but am yet to receive an answer.
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