Lost, but not forgotten - but should we remember?


(Bill Morgan) #11

:+1: :heart:


(Bill Morgan) #12

Thoughtful post V :+1:


(Timothy Cole) #13

I think we should honour those who lost their lives in conflicts and educate the young that war should be avoided at all costs.


(Dominic Best) #14

I think you need empathy for people like the young man he was in the 1940s who risked his life daily to protect his country and its inhabitants. He did not fly for sport, he did not kill for enjoyment, I’m sure that he spent a lot of his time wishing that he was somewhere else doing something else but he did what few people would be prepared to do for the good of his nation. After doing his bit for his country he reverted back to the person he was before he rose to the challenge of war. He, and thousands more like him were heroes in their day and remain heroes to most people even in the over politically correct twenty first century.


(Vanessa Caton) #15

Dominic. As I think I said or at least implied in my post I have the utmost respect and empathy for the gentleman. I respect what he and those like him did . Please don’t accuse me of not having empathy. I did not in any way suggest he killed for enjoyment and I’m sure he was like many put in his position probably haunted by what he had by duty to do , although as there is no reporting of his views on that so we shall never know . I’m sure from what his family said about him he was a gentle kind retiring man in his everyday life. I would never disrespect those who by fate found themselves caught up fighting for , defending or protecting their families and loved ones in a conflict not of their making. The gentleman in question did what he had to do because it was wartime and he was following orders. I think you’ll find I said as much . I’m not questioning his actions but the language used to describe those actions. At the end of the day people were killed. How or why or by whom or what that person was like in everyday life was not the issue . They were still killed. To call that act heroic seems, to me at least somewhat in appropriate. Those who’s families were decimated would surely not use that word. My own father saw active service in the Royal Navy . He never forgot those days or losing his brother to war . He didn’t want to be responsible for killing people but may by his actions have done so. He was conscripted to serve his country at the age of 18. He did not view his role as “heroic”. He did it of necessity . He had no option - the law required him to join the Navy. My comment wasn’t about the man or even about war it was about the use of language . The use specifically of the word “hero”. A word which perhaps has come to have a different meaning in recent times - as I said - I associate it more with putting ones own life at risk in dangerous situations - firefighters, search & rescue etc not with killing people . Yes I know some dictionary definitions refer to war situations but the origin of the word is interesting:-
GENDER: Feminine
USAGE: Greek Mythology
OTHER SCRIPTS: ‘Ηρω (Ancient Greek)
PRONOUNCED: HIR-o (English) [details]
Meaning & History
Derived from Greek ‘ηρως (heros) meaning “hero”. In Greek legend she was the lover of Leander, who would swim across the Hellespont each night to meet her. He was killed on one such occasion when he got caught in a storm while in the water, and when Hero saw his dead body she drowned herself.


(stella wood) #16

Whilst I can understand some of Vanessa’s reservations…

I agree with Dominic that things need to be considered in relation to when (which era) heroic events occurred… and are still occurring…

Frankly, anyone who puts their own life on the line for others… gets my vote as a “Hero”…

My nephew volunteered for a 6-month stint in Afghanistan… aged 19 he went armed with his medical skills… (his Mum and I were terrified for him). He came back safely, thank heavens, having seen and having had to deal with the most awful situations. Our family seems to have a “hero gene” running through it (on the male side at least)… and we are all very proud of him. I do not know if he had to kill anyone, we have not discussed that aspect…

I am content with the certainty that he would have done whatever was necessary to protect himself and those he was trying to help.


(Chris Boyd) #17

Stella asks the question, what became of those young men (those that survived)? I know the answer regarding one of them very well, my father. He was wounded during the first week of the battle of the Somme just three weeks short of his 17th birthday and was repatriated to the UK. One year later he returned to France to fight again, this time in the same battalion as his brother who was sadly killed in action at Passchendaele. At the end of hostilities in 1918 after a brief posting to Italy my father, now a corporal returned to the UK, remained in the Army, married in 1919 and was medically dishcharged with a defective heart the same year. Together wih my mother he brought up four children, myself now being the sole survivor. He died of lung cancer in 1968. His framed WWI medals adorn the wall of a room in my house here in France. It is with my father and his brother in mind that I always accept the invitation to attend the ceremony at the local memorial on November 11th each year.


(stella wood) #18

Our commune is already planning something “special” to mark the 100 years… 1918-2018. Everyone has been asked to dig out photos, souvenirs, letters… whatever. The Fallen… did not necessarily fall in battle, but survived and suffered long after…

My Gran never forgot the young man who sent her a scribbled note from the trenches at Ypres… a gentle letter to a young lady, saying how he hoped they would meet again… He died later that day, but she kept his note and I am its guardian now. :blush:


(David Horsfall) #19

Hero’s??? Having served in HM Forces and various places throughout my career, I do not believe that any member of HM Forces consider themselves a hero. NOW before some of you jump on that very high horse and say WHAT!!!
When have you ever heard a Military person saying “oh yes I am a hero” well the answer is never. Why? because they will see it as doing there job for King/Queen and Country.
But let’s remember that a lot A VERY LOT of men and women have given the ultimate sacrifice so that we who are living today can do so in the freedom that we enjoy. So back to the original question:- when should we stop commemorating…Never, it’s quite simple, acts of remembrance are about every battle / conflict or war that has taken place whether in our time or generations before. So lets not forget those who gave us our freedom today.


(stella wood) #20

I heartily agree with you… the “heroes” never see themselves as such… it is us on the outside who name them thus…

My nephew does not consider himself a “hero”… he merely did what he felt was right… but he is a “hero” as far as his family is concerned. My Dad was also a “hero”…but, it was only by meeting some of his crew in his latter years, that I learned what he had actually got up to… he was always self-effacing and worked tirelessly to help those less fortunate than he was.


(Ann Coe) #21

Ok, going back to what I originally said … The world as we knew in our younger times has changed, thankfully for the better, because my generation took no part in the ‘great wars’. My family has talked about what happened, about loved ones that were lost.
Why then hand these things down to a generation that should be looking towards the future ?
If we continue with these ‘ceromonies’ when will it ever end ? Yes it’s important that we don’t make the same mistakes. However, cheap travel, internet and instant news has broadened the horizons and I don’t feel that we should burden our future generations with the mistakes/events of the past.
So, when will it ever end ? Look at these conflicts that we never learned from…We are in a new Millenium so why must we keep ‘harking’ back to other times, why not include these other wars that I have listed here too because they will have affected someone in my our your families, but in the past !
For goodness sakes let the future generations be free from all the propoganda !
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_1800–1899strong text


(Helen Wright) #22

I sent off for duplicates of medals lost in a fire when the father of my kids was two years old…never received them…their grandads were in the war and although all returned alive it was obvious they had memories which haunted them…My maternal grandad kept a bible with a bullethole that he was convinced had saved him from death…he died of cancer when I was seven…

I have raised my own kids to see (and to see through) all sides and as conscientious objectors…I don’t agree with war in any of it’s guises and see all wars as gangster bankster wars where they profit from all sides and all angles…war is a racket…and nothing to do with our natural state of being…

As I write the rafah crossing has been closed…and Gaza is under attack yet again…millions dieing of starvation in Yemen…

I don’t dispute the sacrifices made by those involved on the ground in any war…but I think we have all been lied to…globally…I look at war…any wars…all wars…not with nostalgia but with anger…


(Dominic Best) #23

One of my more valued possessions and (in the next post) the date it probably saved my maternal grandfather’s life. He was so ill after being wounded he was expected to die and his mother went to visit him in the field hospital. He actually lived into his early 80s and died soon before he and my grandmother would have celebrated their Diamond Wedding. He might not be a hero to anyone else but he always was and will be to me.


(Dominic Best) #24


(Bill Morgan) #25

“Lest we forget”.
Let’s Not Forget :heart:


(Peter Goble) #26

“… I think we have all been lied to…” (@Helen6)

I think so too, Helen. I know my comments sometimes raise hackles, but there is another narrative on the conduct of war, which is seldom if ever acknowledged.

My father was a skilled engineer at the onset of WW2. In his late 20s he worked in a reserved occupation at Austin Aero in Longbridge, Birmingham, making Lancaster bombers. He, and many of his workmates, and many service-men, believed that Churchill had a secret pact with Hitler to destroy the Soviet Union.

The Aero complex was huge, over several square miles, and served by a very visible road and railway system seven miles from the city centre. Although it was a highly visible target, it was never bombed by the Luftwaffe, nor the nearby densely populated neighbourhoods where my father lived, and where I grew up. My father said its protection was agreed by Churchill and Hitler, so it could stay in production to smash the Bolsheviks.

My father became a communist after the war. So did many others of his generation.

Dad was in the Home Guard and did look-out duties on the factory roof, waving as the German bombers and Stukas flew over their heads to drop bombs on Birmingham’s slums. No homes in Longbridge or local suburbs were bombed, although a German fighter crash landed on our local golf course.

There is much more that might be recounted, but the tales of derring-do and worthy sacrifice for British values are used to paint over the cracks in the facade of falsehood and deceit. And of course it still goes on. War is a very very lucrative trade, and a gift that goes on giving.


(Ann Coe) #27

Let’s not also forget Bill that they didn’t have a choice either, they like many others in the past were conscripted. Fight or be put in prison, even be shot in the first WW or other past conflicts !
My point is just how long do we go on forcing these conflicts on to the future generations ? Lest we forget, many heard that after the 1st WW, didn’t learn much there did we !
Future conflicts will have nothing to do with all these ‘noble wars’. Nothing to do with lest we forget, more to do with propoganda.
Like a lot of you, lost a lot of my family during and after the war, can also recount tales that have been handed down.
It has to stop somewhere, for every war/conflict there is more than one side, everyone loses, no one wins!
Hatred still exists, more so, because sometimes it seems we can’t even have a debate or a difference of opinion without a lot of argy bargy !


(Bill Morgan) #28

First Ann, my Dad had a choice, He volunteered at the outbreak of WW11 and served for the 6yrs., as did many others, for a principle.
ConspirAcy Theories aside :wink:


(Peter Goble) #29

I agree with much of what you say, Ann. If I have any comment to make it’s that argy-bargy is one thing, the cold-blooded killer of a person who is doing the same cold-blooded job as you in a kill-or-be-killed situation, for an abstract ideology is something else.

Apart from blind rage or huge fear, humans have a powerful self-inhibition against causing the death of a fellow being. Soldiers have to be conditioned to overcome this resistance, by anaesthetising it, and by developing blind unquestioning obedience to authority, using group psychology. They are not really heros, just men behaving like Pavlov’s experimental dogs.

The effects of such conditioning has long been recognised, in devastated de-mob lives, domestic violence, alcohol and drug abuse, self-harm and suicide. As is to be expected. Fortunately for the services, most ex-soldiers are too ill and socially incapable to protest much, as the old saying goes, they “simply fade away”.


(Ann Coe) #30

Well there were a lot who didn’t have a choice Bill !
Not forgetting also those who were ‘forced’ into service in the UK. My dear late friend was single at the time, she was sent many miles away from home to be a capstan lathe operator after training. Land Army etc; etc;!
Still no one answers just when do we stop ‘carrying’ this on to the youngsters ?