We have decided to return to the UK full time...so are selling the house in the Dordogne, but also have an apartment in the Languedoc, and the flat we have in the UK.....both of which we could sell easily and quickly....but A. the French apartment is our Maison Secondaire...so we have to sell the Dordogne house, then OH has to move to the Languedoc for 6 months...so it becomes his main residence....and B. we cant sell the UK flat as I need somewhere to live until we buy a new house!
Yes it was the same with Scott - we could have said he was living part time in the house we own (but it is rented out to a friend) and kept him as a UK resident but it doesn't suit us to do that right now like you! However it could be useful!
it was suggested by our English accountant that he spends sufficient time in the UK to be a UK citizen and as I live in the UK...for it to be counted as his domicile. But we are trying to sell the French house...and it would count against us if it was not the main residence of at least one of us! you are right....life gets very complicated....!
Yep Carol if you have access to a home ie your flat then your residency is different. My hubby only rents digs - our home is rented out so his main home is classed as France.
Your situation proves that it is NOT just about how many days one spends in each country! It can be mind blowingly complicated lol!
Laura......my husband is resident in France, we have a huge house and several acres...so its def. our main resident...other half is resident for 6 - 7 months of the year in France and is counted as a French resident and pays French tax. I, on the other hand, spend 10 months of the year in the UK, live in our tiny flat and work in the UK...paying UK taxes and basically am a UK citizen. So we are classed individually...all my tax is paid in the UK...all his in France....
This happened to me a couple of years ago in the UK. I had a late penalty for 2004/5 for about 5 weeks worth of freelance work. I paid this but then went on to work solely for a company who sorted my taxes out. I then got a bill in 2008 for about the same amount as you. I phoned HMRC and they told me it was because I hadn't declared that I wasn't working freelance anymore so HMRC assume you earn the same amount and tax you accordingly. I asked them to waive the 3 x £100 late penalties and filled out a new return for the year and the amount of tax I owed was reduced to about £100.
Damaris
This appears to be relatively straightforward but I may be wrong - simply send them proof that you registered with the French Impot and made a declaration during 2009/2010 and 2011. You have to demonstrate to one tax authority or the other how you survived without income.
I would point out, that I have no UK income since December 2009. I duly filled in my tax form in 2010 and again in 2011 stating that I had left the UK permananently and that I was no longer receiving any income etc, etc. I didn't receive anymore reminders and so forgot all about anything HMRC related.
Doreen is absolutely right: when dealing with large organisations it is a good idea to keep a record of names, times and dates.
Good luck.
isn't there also a tax rule that says as long as you are out of the country for so many days in a tax year then you don't have to pay tax.
It's not that simple. Other factors are involved. For example my husband works permanently in the UK and is there over 300 days a year but he is resident in France for tax purposes because I am here and resident and as his spouse his permanent abode is therefore classed as France. He pays his tax and NI in the UK and has to do a self assessment in the UK and do a déclaration here and if there is surplus tax to pay, he has to pay it here.
Oh yes, I did have that. Having been mainly self-employed and also had received teaching fees as a 'freelancer', I had no P45, 46 or 60. I had been doing Self Assessments for quite a while. From here I told them that, but back came the letter to explain that I should submit form P85, so I wrote back and asked only to read on it when it arrived, that people doing Self Assessment do not fill that in but there was no hint as to what to do instead. Nothing happened, I have never had any problem as a result but it is simply an illustration of just how contrary it all is.
I had a reminder recently from HMRC for my tax return, sorted it out on the phone but was told I should have filled in form P85 leaving the country and sent them a copy of my P60, which I have done now but didn't know it was required. They don't make things very clear! Good luck.
Yes, Terry, but you first have to get yourself into the position, where they recognise that you are not resident and not ordinarily resident. This sometimes takes a couple of tax years. Initially, you are allowed to spend 60 days in UK in a tax year, provided that you abide by the one sixth rule, which basically means that for every day you spend in UK, you must have spent 5 days outside. A day runs from midnight to midnight, so if you are in UK at 00.01 and depart before 2359, that day doesn't count as you being in UK. After you get the non-resident stamp, you can spend 90 days in UK and after a certain period of absence, longer, I believe up to 180 days. These were the rules, when I became non-resident. I did get it in writing from IR as it was then.
If you think that there could be an issue over your trips, you ask the border control people to stamp your passport on arrival and departure. They used to be happy to do this, if asked.
Incidentally, my father, who is 95 and almost blind and has a steady, stable retirement income has had to field demands from HMRC to fill in a tax return for several years. This is because his income is pension and some interest and this counts as unearned income. Anyone above a certain level of unearned income (21,000ish) has to fill a tax return. Every year he has to be taken to the local tax office and they fill in the return for him and he signs it. Sometimes an inspector can be persuaded to make a home visit. I've been to the tax office and there are plenty ready and willing to help and there isn't much of queue, so they must be pretty bored.
However, the main hmrc processing is done in various centres and you might get contradictory letters from different centres.
Come to think of it, it sounds just like the tales of France, I've read on SFN.
Fight it or they will take liberties. We are trying to sort out the tax affairs of a recently deceased relative who never challenged anything. When she retired in 1976 they speculatively charged her for a non existent £2000 untaxed income.
She never opened anything from them (obviously her choice/fault) and even got taken to court for non submission of tax returns. She didn't turn up because she didn't open that either and had to pay a huge penalty. Anyway they have been taxing her on this non-existent £2000 annual income ever since (35+ years) so now it has been found out, they owe her estate quite a lot and her executor is determined to get it all back. We have got back about ten years worth so far so you can do it!
Never accept anything on face value from HMRC. And never EVER trust them to do anything from a phoned instruction. Always write.
Don't pay- fight it. For years I got a bill from IRCEC and paid it without really paying much attention. Turns out that IRCEC is supplementary French retirement income, and as I won't get a French retirement, I have just been throwing the money away. My accountant and I have been trying to be reimbursed for three years- nada.
Also, a few days ago I got a threatening letter, bill and fine because I hadn't paid all my Taxe d'Habitation. I had subtracted the Audiovisual fee because I don't have a television, and written, signed an affidavit and received confirmation of this. I took it in to my local office and they just threw it in the rubbish after checking my record on the computer.
People mess up, but once you have paid the money it's almost impossible to get back so don't pay it!
We have been having problems with HMRC as the time that post takes to reach us gives us no time to act.
We are registered to file on line, but even the personal code arrived after the thirty days allowed to use it.
Eventually we found someone to complain to, overseas problems for self assessment, and he has now closed our files as everything is now here.
We used our VOIP phone to call, as it is cheaper and we were told that we were calling from the UK and wouldn’t take our call, so it cost us a small fortune on the 'phone to sort it out.
We threatened going to our MP and asking him to ask a PQ in the House!
Thanks to all for the advice. I'm going to call them back tomorrow and see what happens. I'll just keep ringing until I get someone who is prepared a) to listen and b) to help...only took three phonecalls last time! Will keep you posted :)
No help at all probably, but within a year of being here and because I had paid a small amount on royalties from the Authors' Collecting and Licencing Society I made a claim. ALCS always provide a proper statement so that was easy. BUT when I had my repayment it was far more than anything I had earned at that stage given that I had only done about six weeks of teaching before leaving and being very part time paid zilch. I contacted them and they put me on to the dispute resolution people, which was weird because I did not want to dispute anything. I only wanted to know what had happened. In the end I found out that I had two back payments from previous years that had not been claimed. Because I had claimed the few quid they had decided to give me everything that showed on their system but without explaining what the repayment was for. I left it there, surprised even then because I was not sure how I could have overpaid anything.
My point is, that HMRC seem to have a strange way of dealing with payments and repayments that often seem to date back several years. They sit on unpaid taxes accumulating interest/penalty fees or whatever we can call them and out of the blue sometimes, as people I know have explained to me since my surprise, or when making a claim something clicks in the computer and it is either jackpot or misery. Unfortunately, they have ways of pursuing us here via the French fiscal authorities because of the bilateral agreements. Since nobody wants that on their shoulders the only way to resolve it is to speak, not write, but speak to your last local office. If there is no immediate solution then there is the dispute resolution route, for which David has given the link, but you better have statements for the last handful of years available to show them and on which to construct your case. If you have any irrefutable evidence of when you became permanent resident here that might help too.
...and people complain about how complicated the French system is!
Pobody’s nerfect…isn’t there also a tax rule that says as long as you are out of the country for so many days in a tax year then you don’t have to pay tax. That used to be the case anyway. Proof of non-residence was not required. I have always found it best to phone the local tax office related to the issue and discuss it with full transparency.
Damaris, I feel for you, we told the HMRC we'd left in 2009 but in 2012 we found out back in 2009 they rejected it saying we were still resident as we had been resident in the past 3 years. As it happens Darren is resident again now anyway but the only reason we found out they'd rejected our paperwork in 2009 was because Darren's tax code was wrong in 2012. Our accountant filed nil returns in 2010 and 2011 (when our income was France only) but they apparently accepted these even though they'd rejected the non-resident status...confused, yes absolutely!
Do call HMRC, explain what has happened, keep calling until you get a. someone who cares and b. someone who knows what they are talking about.
Good luck!