Pépiniériste

Hello, I have a friend in the UK that is planning to move to France fairly soon. His plan is to open a small nursery, selling mostly at markets. His French is pretty good but he is having trouble finding out the best way to do this. I’ve done a little research and it appears that you cannot sell plants under the AE scheme but have to be registered as a ‘farming’ enterprise. I phoned the local COC
and the person I spoke to said that unless he was going to open to rival Jardiland then not to bother as the social costs are very high.

I buy several French gardening mags and they all frequently have articles about people who open small nurseries, many of them after retirement so not sure if this makes it easier in some way?? There is a couple in a nearby village that run one from home in a garden of about 4000m2, selling direct from the house and plant fairs so cannot see how they could be ‘farmers’.

Anyone got any ideas? Or know someone that has done this?

Many thanks, as always
Beth

I have met (though don’t really know) Owen and Sue Cake who are the ‘Rosiers Anglais’ here in central Brittany…
https://rosiersanglais.com/

Many thanks Geof, I’ll contact them.
regards
Beth

A phrase from their website is perhaps an omen:

“Nous avons quitter l’Angleterre il y a 10 ans pour vivre en Bretagne , pour ouvrir une pépinière . 10 ans plus tard nous avons finalement obtenu l’autorisation pour l’ouverture en tant de spécialiste de pépiniére de rose à Lostanlen”

It’s not just a question of the type of business structure, but they also need to consider the land. As I think a pépiniére will be required to be on agricultural land, or equivalent, so they can’t just open one in their back garden. We have a 10m strip at the bottom of our garden that is classed as agricultural, and non-constructible. So houses exist that might be easy to transform but its something they need to get right. They will probably be required to do some basic training to open a business, and make sure their qualifications are in order.

But the comment they got about high social charges I think relates more to taking on employees. It is a real problem for small businesses in france, as once you move from being a one man band the costs are exorbitant.

(Oh, and maybe the retired people were farmers…so still have their contacts. And if not paying into a pension scheme are more able to flex rules)

Many thanks Jane, I know this is France but why do they make it SO complicated. The ones I saw in my magazine were businesses opened in their gardens although they only sold to the public at shows. The chap in the village near us has only a tiny garden in a village all of his garden is taken up with sales of his plants & poly tunnels and is open to the public all the time! So how does this work? Do you think he is the Marie???
I understand that every occupation has it’s rules but then there seems to be lots of exceptions around with regard to nurseries. It would help to be able to get some idea of what exactly is needed.
Many thanks
Beth

Hello Beth

It may be worth speaking to the chap you mentioned. I’m sure he would help especially if you bought a little something from him and assured him your friend would not be in competition with him.

Hope you find the information you need.

Don’t forget that you are only allowed to sell at two vide greniers per year even if it is all all your own old stuff.
This is France and that is one of the more ridiculous restrictions I have come across.

Thanks Jane but it wouldn’t be at VG’s, it would be markets of plant fairs, although I don’t think this is going to work. If only these thing were a little simpler all these small business would be paying their tax but the ‘rules’ seem more important.

regards
Beth

How the heck do they cope with eBay?

Setting up a small business in France must be the most complicated of any country! When I set up as self employed in UK it was a matter of a form to HMRC, a phone call with my insurance company and that was that!

The problem is that French people will know a lot of things instinctively that seem illogical to us. And do accept that it can take time to get the right bits of paper. I would head off to a plant fair and ask people! If you pick a less busy moment they are often happy to chat.

(Jane, we’re off to Bézouotte next week, our favorite plant fair. Have you ever been or is it too far?)

The issue is that any land-based activity in France comes under MSA. MSA is very active on behalf of its members in terms of providing support and advice, providing social protection, campaigning, etc etc etc (not for nothing do French farmers have a reputation for solidarity) and the flipside of this of course is that everyone who earns even a small income from the land is liable to have to pay fairly steep solidarity contributions. MSA also monitors land use very closely in line with local policy, so anyone wishing to set up a new activity would need to work with their local MSA representatives and ensure that MSA is happy with what they want to do, how they want to do it, and if relevant, their qualifications to work on the land. You could say MSA is protectionist and restrictive, or you could say that it looks after its members’ interests and the national interest by ensuring that best use is made of the land, and by blocking off any risk of unfair competition by not allowing ‘amateurs’ who are not paying solidarity to market anything they have grown or raised.

As Jayne says, the French instinctively know that farmers have a special status and that joining their ranks if you are setting up a land based business from scratch risks being complicated.

It is a bit of a minefield and I don’t know all the ins and outs but there may well be exemptions for retirees who set up a small scale land based activity, which could explain why so many people go into this kind of activity after retiring.

This page outlines the conditions for setting up a land-based activity https://www.msa.fr/lfy/installation/conditions
I think your friends should start by approaching their local branch to see if there is any future in this.
FWIW I knew a lady who did exactly this, in Normandy, and she said the MSA were incredibly helpful. She had many hoops to jump through but they guided her all the way and even bent a few of their own rules to get her set up and running.

PS This might also be of use https://www.msa.fr/lfy/exploitant/micro-benefice-agricole
it is the MSA’s equivalent of micro entreprise, so this would be the simplest business structure to use if appropriate, though not as simple as the ‘normal’ micro entreprise.

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Many thanks for all your replies - I’ll pass the info on.
regards
Beth

Good post Anna.
A couple of years after we moved to France I was struck by a sentence in a newspaper report on Greece’s deal with its ‘creditors’ - that it would ‘force Greece to repeal bans on Sunday trading, repeal laws that ensure you can get fresh bread on every street corner, and open up the system of family pharmacies, whose owners give informal credit and advice, to takeover by global corporations’.
What struck me particularly was that these words could be applied almost as accurately to France (nearly everything closes on Sundays – and, this being France, for 2 hours every lunchtime too - every village has its artisan boulangerie, and its pharmacie).
The previous year French pharmacists had gone on strike even though they are mostly small-business-people – because they were threatened by legal changes that might, among other things, allow global corporations – giant supermarket chains - to sell over-the-counter medicines. French pharmacists seem to be an integral part of the national health system and lifestyle – not only (in my experience) do they always take the time to advise you on health problems, you can also do things like collect wild mushrooms and take them to the local pharmacist, who will tell you which to eat and which to throw away. The supermarkets would no doubt sell cheaper potions and lotions, which is supposed to be good for ‘consumers’ – but would also threaten the viability of many village pharmacies. So which would we rather have? - a few cents off paracetamol in an out-of-town shopping mall wasteland, or a real accessible expert in every village?
This was one step in my gradual realisation that what can at first strike immigrants from more ‘neo-liberal’ economies like us as off-putting regulation of trades, etc, is in fact precisely what helps preserve many of the things we love about France - the focus on family, community, well-being, locality, ‘terrior’ - instead of making money, working all hours, acquiring more stuff, etc…

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Geoff Cox I agree completely. I live in Luxembourg with a holiday home in France 83. When I first moved to Luxembourg in the 80’s from Britain I found all the rules and regulations that affected everyday life very strange and restrictive.
I was at that time also a fan of globalisation and welcomed Auchan opening in Luxembourg as they shook up the local home grown supermarkets particularly with customer service which in Luxembourg had not been invented at that time.
However I have also slowly over the years recognised that so many of the “restrictive and monopolistic” rules were as you say preserving many of the good things in both France, Luxembourg and also Germany.
As time has passed I see this “regulation” is what sets Britain apart from my adopted homes and now frankly I dislike the attitude of “we don’t need rules we should be allowed to do what we want, this is a free country” which appears the mantra in the UK.

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You must live in a remarkable part of France then Geof. An artisan baker in every village? A pharmacy? I don’t think our village has ever had a pharmacy and the bakery must have disappeared in the nineteenth century if there ever was one.

I do indeed live in a wonderful part of France David - and the more I read comments like yours the more I realise how lucky we are - and it was just luck - we were actually looking to move to Normandy but ended up in Brittany! - not only does every substantial village have a boulangerie and pharmacie, but they all now seem to have electric vehicle charging points, and many have other great features - such as ‘freecycling’ points or really excellent bookshops even in tiny places (eg. https://www.librairieletempsquilfait.org/). I note also we have the highest concentration of bars of any region of France - testimony I think to the sociability of the Bretons - and of left-wing voters, which is obviously also a boon!
However, I have also travelled throughout France, and have found that you can generally rely on finding at least a boulangerie and pharmacie - and probably a bar - even where there is little else - so perhaps it’s your area that is unusual?

I don’t know where David is, of course, but in Sarthe and not far from Le Mans, the villages have little to commend them. My commune has a bar/restaurant, butcher and bee produce shop apart from the, apparently mandatory, hairdresser!
The butcher is a ‘depot de pain’ but is closed on a Monday. The other bar used to be a ‘depot de pain’ and Tabac, but that closed and the Tabac not replaced (the reason was that there is one 15km away and another 12!).
The nearest town has a SuperU, A la maison.fr, three bakeries, three hairdressers, etc., etc.
Perhaps it is just our definition of village that differs.

I suspect that Geoff is calling “villages” what I would call towns…

Villages tend to be rural/rustic … towns large and small are definitely “urban”.

Our commune has inhabitants around 550 with less than 100 of these in the Village itself, whereas , as far as I have seen, a town will have a couple of thousand and upwards …

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Well I certainly wouldn’t expect a ‘village’ with only 100 inhabitants to have many facilities - but take for example our local village - population about 900 - I don’t think anyone would call it a town - it’s just a very typical - very pretty - French rural village of the kind I had in mind in my post - and it has a boulangerie and a pharmacie (and other stuff - I agree coiffures seem to be ubiquitous too).

Geof what is the size/population of your Commune… ??? Our Commune is nearly 40k square… with around 550 inhabitants… a very rural Commune.

We have 30-40 hamlets and the Commune centre is the Village (le bourg).

In its hey-day we used to have Mairie, school, post office, 2 garages, 3/4 bars/tabacs, 2 epicieries and 3 cafés/restaurants… a wood yard… butcher/baker (but no candle stick maker). Since the late 80’s things have slowed down… The bars/tabacs etc have gone and we only have 1 commercial property now… but we do have the Mairie, school and post office… :hugs: