Is it not possible to be paid by a uk company, but declare that income in France and pay tax and cotisations on it here?
Yes - we do this. I own a UK company that employs my wife and I here in France - we also have a UK director. Not only is it possible, it’s also tax efficient - though we do have to do both UK and French tax returns!
We have accountants that have both UK and French offices and specialise in this kind of thing (http://www.markshreeve.com/) - I’m sure there are similar in other areas of France.
Can’t pretend I know much about how brexit will affect the arrangement though.
Thanks Geof, that’s really helpful and exactly the arrangement that would apply. I guess my question is would that arrangement be possible if, for example, I was a US citizen wanting to move to France, employed by my US company (on the basis I assume we’d be treated in a similar way post Brexit. I guess we’ll have to wait until November to find out (presuming the worst happens). But I’ll give the accountants a ring anyway to see if they have any advice. Thank you so much.
I would be working in France, from home (as I do now) with occasional trips to the UK to visit staff and clients. I guess, in that respect it would be like a French citizen living and working in the UK but employed by a French company like EDF. Our preference would be to leave the company registered in the UK if possible, largely because one director will still be UK based, 85% of our customers are based in the UK and most of our staff are currently UK based. It makes sense therefore for us to be legally registered in the UK so that the company will be less impacted by currency fluctuations - the only person directly impacted by those would be me. I just don’t know if its possible to get a visa to live in a foreign country (assuming we’re not in the EU after October) and be paid by a company based in your country of origin, though I don’t really see why it should matter. Surely the most important thing is to be able to prove an income that means you won’t be reliant on the state and that you can support yourself financially?
A trip to London might be called for. Thanks Jane.
URSSAF has a special system for foreign companies employing workers based in France and they have published a guide in English explaining how it works:
The issue after Brexit will be getting a work permit. It makes no difference where the employer is based - US, UK, Germany or wherever, any employer can use this system to employ workers in France, but the person they employ has to have either the automatic right to work in France via FoM, or a document proving their right to work here.
(Under France’s draft Brexit legislation, Brits who were already working here before the cut off date will be granted the right to continue working so they shouldn’t be affected apart from the need to obtain the appropriate documents in due course.)
Karen, you’re a star! I was becoming despondent when I saw the requirements for a work permit, but then I found this scheme:
This would seem to be the scheme for me and gives me hope!
The issue we have with this is the qualifications the French require to set up a business which has been successfully trading from the uk for 5 years!
It has just been registered a limited company on 1/4/19 rather than the self employed/sole trader setup it had for the previous 4 years.
We need the business to remain registered in the uk as that is where the bulk of our customers are and also where the goods will be posted from (we have had really poor experiences of la poste over the last 4 years we have tried posting from here.
Either myself or husband will be declaring ourselves fiscally resident in France before 31st October, no matter what happens.
I believe this means we will need to do a tax return in uk for rental property and for my self employment in April 2020, along with the Ltd company’s corporation tax. But that we inform the inland revenue that we are resident in France and will pay tax/cotisations on our salaries from Ltd co in France.
In France I will register under ME system for my company and will pay tax and cotisations on that income here. I will be taking advice on the structure as i have high outgoings due to being a reseller and I need these expenses taking into account else I will be paying more out than I have left!
As it’s just an internet (ebay seller) there isn’t a qualification I can do to satisfy the French requirements!
Will the fact I earn over NMW and have previous uk accounts to show be sufficient?
In France we need to
If you want to work in France you have to accept how we do things, sometimes it is incomprehensible and irritating or indeed infuriating but that is how we do things. Other countries do things differently, that is up to them. To do my job, in France, you need a master’s degree and to succeed in a nationwide competitive exam - in the UK it is different, in Germany different again, all over Europe it is different. There are lots of places you can live, if you choose to live somewhere, you accept it has its own rules by which you are supposed to abide, nobody is forcing you to live there.
I would also check the emergency legislation France passed in February to manage no deal for UK citoyens, some of which aims to make France more attractive to business creators from the UK. It covers share ownership and reserved professions, all in rather broad terms though, pending further decrees. Additionally, it is contingent on reciprocal arrangements being legislated post-Brexit in the UK.
Karen, I have to admit that from your post I’m very confused about your plans. But if I have correctly understood the gist, you want to live and work in France after Brexit and you are hoping to do this on the basis of being Brits arrived in France pre Brexit, but you haven’t as yet taken any steps to register your employee status and/or business activity/activities here.
So at the most basic level what I am wondering is, in the event of a hard Brexit at the end of October, how are you going to put together a dossier for your carte(s) de séjour, given on the one hand the requirement to demonstrate at least three months’ “stable and legal” residence in France before Brexit, and on the other hand you don’t appear to have established stable and legal residency yet and there is less than three months left?
Reading your post it seemed to me you are worrying about all kinds of things that shouldn’t be issues and shouldn’t need worrying about, but you may have overlooked possibly the most vital issue of all. Hopefully I have missed something or misunderstood the situation entirely.
I was under the impression from lots of researching that as long as we were fiscally resident in France before Brexit date, we would have 1 year to apply for permanent residency.
We wouldn’t be required to present a dossier showing three months residency on Brexit date.
Is this not the case?
Hi Karen… Is Stanning your surname? if this is just a typing error, I can amend your Registration for you…
actually, I think you have 2 Registrations on this Forum
Which one do you wish to maintain ??
I hadn’t realised I’d registered twice. I think one is using my my email on my phone and the other the email from my iPad!
My name is Karen Stanning
Right. You joined in 2016 … yet, with the other “name” you joined again in 2017.
You can really only have one Registration. As you have used the other “name” much more, would you prefer to maintain that one ???
Let us know and @James can sort things out Registration-wise for you.
This lays out what Brits in France will be faced with … after Brexit…
My email is the same from my phone and my iPad
You can’t apply for permanent residency after 1 year. For permanent residence you need to demonstrate 5 years legal residence. Provided you can show you were resident on the cut off date you will be given a temporary titre de séjour to allow you to stay and accumulate the necessary 5 years, after which you apply for the titre de séjour permanent.
What is not clear, is what will be required to prove residency before Brexit. (You keep mentioning “fiscal residency” but AFAIK the rules are not concerned with fiscal residency, they are concerned with residency in the broader sense, ie France is your foyer/the centre of your economic interests/etc. Fiscal residency is in any case not a thing you can “declare”, it’s something that is established as a consequence of meeting certain criteria over a period of time, so it is normally established retrospectively, ie after you have submitted your first tax form.) Up to now, for intial applications préfectures have been wanting to see evidence of “stable and regular” residence including for instance justicatifs to show that applicants are in the French healthcare/social security system, either via an S1 or via paying cotisations, stuff like that. However I just checked the Brexit legislation and I didn’t see any reference there to “stable” so probably you are right and they cannot insist on all these documents. The question is, what dossier will they require from people who arrived immediately before the cut off date, because obviously they will want to be able to distinguish between people who live in the UK and who popped over to France the day before Brexit for a brief stay at their holiday home or in rented accommodation in the hopes of blagging a titre de séjour (because you can bet there will be people who will try their luck), and people who genuinely have moved their country of residence and their move just happened to coincide with Brexit? I am not suggesting that you are trying to blag anything, all I am saying that if I were in your situation I would be looking to cover my back by establishing myself here asap. France has a track record of going through paperwork with a fine toothcome because it is keen not to leave its systems open to abuse, and that means that sometimes genuine applicants have a hard time convincing the authorities that they are genuine, simply because for whatever reason they don’t have paperwork to prove their situation.
Of course it could be that I am being over cautious and there will be very minimal checks for the temporary titre de séjour, but that may depend on how accommodating or otherwise the UK is with its EU residents.
Well explained Anna, in my opinion.
Even now, the New Arrivals that I am “helping”, are being put through the mill, to ensure they are not “trying it on”.
Having said that - although the questioning is fierce - it is friendly - and very, very searching. Anyone who has not thought their situation through sufficiently - might well be in for a rocky-ride and perhaps a disappointment.
We won’t be trying to blag it.
We put off moving earlier as our daughter required surgery which isn’t available in France just yet. The previous model is here (france) but the one our daughter needed isn’t. She had the surgery 4 weeks ago and won’t need another for 3-5 years. We couldn’t risk the move until that was done (she has a vagal nerve simulator for her epilepsy)
We have been here since beginning of Aug and will return to the UK next Thursday in order to manufacture stock for our business and get our bungalow ready to rent out, then we will be back for good - except for visits to see older daughters and granddaughters e.g. it’s youngest’s baptism in February 2020, so we will be there for that.
We have been paying the usual taxe fonciere and habitation for 2 years in our names.
We will definitely be residing in France as our UK property will be occupied!
We have opened bank accounts in France.
I may be worrying about lots of inconsequential things to some but they are important to me.
We will need to be in the health system quickly for our daughter’s medications.
We have lots to still do, but I am overwhelmed as to where to start.
It would be useful if someone could point me in the direction of a step by step guide of what needs doing.