Right, I need help... in a good way

General Discussion
1

I’m in a whirl, merry go round, system collapse!
It’s a paperwork problem - isn’t it always - and encompasses the SECU, CCI, URSSAF, GREFFE, RAM and probably the swears RSI as well, even if they exist only in nightmares now.
I’m trying to add my husband as a conjoint collaborator to the paperwork for my market stand thing. He sometimes helps me install the stand.
The gendarmes have told me he MUST be on my KBIS… The CCI say he must be a conjoint collaborateur if he’s helping.
I’ve completed a P2 for the CCI… All well and good. They’ve sent copies or the dossier or whatever to “everyone”
and all hell has broken loose…
the URSSAF say he’s got to cease his own activity…
the Secu say their system does not permit an auto-ent like me to have a conjoint
the RAM says here’s your new assurance maladie status, now you’re with us
and on and on.
So. It’s complicated, in fact it’s emotional.
The cops say I have 30 days to have a complete dossier.
So my question is WHO ? Who can I go to for help?
Plainly the best thing is to go somewhere and get it all done by phone, via a computer system to stop the mess and get to the bottom of whatever status he should have…
But who? I shouldn’t not have to pay for help… The phone’s no good because I don’t actually know who to call or what my question is!
Email doesn’t work and nor does writing - in fact it’s making it worse.

I’ve always found one on one, across a desk is the best way to get things done on France - but I’m banging my head against a wall trying to find out where to start

thanks (even if it’s only for a bit of sympathy!)
x teresa

2

Gracious Teresa - sounds quite a pickle.

Deep breaths - all will be well … in the end.

I’m sure @anon27586881 will chime in - she seems very knowledgeable on this sort of thing.

My own remedy for “panic” situations - is to talk quietly with someone at my Mairie - but I realize that not all Mairies are so helpful/long-suffering etc as mine is. However, it might be worth a try, as the Gendarmes are involved and Mairies often have a “special” arrangement with the G’s and they might be able to “cool” the situation.

Best of luck

xxx

3

thanks Stella… yes, breathe!

the gendarmes are perfectly nice - i know them by name and they know i’m not being bad, it’s simply (!) a matter of paperwork…

and i’m usually pretty good at all this

but now i’m not

4

As I say - you need someone to “cut through the $rap” and put you on the right track.

If all you OH does is help erect the stand - how does that become “working for you” or am I missing something basic.

5

All I can suggest is:

If he already has his own entreprise individuelle registered then no, he can’t also be a conjoint collaborateur in yours. One person can’t run/jointly run two entreprises individuelles, this rule is set in stone.
He could potentially be a conjoint salarié in your business alongside running his own business.

Beyond that, basically it’s simply a case of applying the rules to your own situation, but trying to give advice without knowing the full details would probably do more harm than good.

Easy to say with hindslght, but in general it’s a good idea to find out the rules first and then fit your business round them, because if you go ahead and do things in whatever way suits you best without finding out the implications, there is always the danger that you’ll get yourself into a corner without even realising it. The market inspectors or gendarmes are entitled to check whether any person running or assisting with a market stall is correctly registered.

6

Hello Anna, thank you so much for your reply! (excuse my late response…)
Yep - you’re right - in hindsight we would have done things differently - but hindsight doesn’t let a business grow or change or face real-life challenges!
So, (and in the hope of the answers here helping others too!)
I need my husband to help me set up the stand - it’s now too big and too physical for me.
We agree he must be ‘registered’ - the (nice) gendarmes say he 'must be on the kbis.
I can pay him or not - ideally not - from a purely paperwork point of view.
He is a registered auto-entrepreneur as a Macon - but he doesn’t do this anymore and is unlikely to as an auto-ent ever again.
He may work as a macon - but we have found a great employment agency and he might occasionally work via them.
So - it seems it make the best sense for him to give up his status, & become a conjoint in the business, not paid.
What do you think?
(or am i making it worse!!!)

7

If he’s registered as a Maçon - is he not ‘building’ your stall?

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8

Good God Graham! how could you - don’t you know we’re talking about the CCI, Ursaaf, the Greffe

There is NO ROOM for humour here…

If you like I can probably find a picture (when i suggested this very thing)

of a gendarme with a look that says

‘i think she tried to make a joke - i’ll just ignore her - silly girl/foreigner’

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9

No - seriously Teresa.
If you need to employ someone to erect your stand, where/who would you go to?
A registered maçon p’tet?
If you are going to pay him as a conjoint why not engage the services of the agency and request them to provide him?
Get the paperwork sorted… I presume it’s the Police Municipal (as opposed to Gendarme) so go and talk to the Maire.
Their only interest is in ensuring that correct procedure is observed and that there is no tax avoidance.

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10

Yes to the first half of your sentence, no to the second.
It’s not about income tax avoidance, it’s about unregistered labour, which is far far more serious in France. In fact a large proportion of the population pays little or no income tax and income tax avoidance isn’t really an issue amongst ordinary folk, but avoiding paying your social dues (or rather, someone else avoiding paying their social dues) is regarded as cheating society not just cheating the government, it does very much apply to ordinary folk rather than the elite and there is strong feeling about it.
Teresa I can’t advise, I don’t know all the details of your situation and I don’t want to, but what you suggested above sounds like it would be one option.
Do you actually have a kbis to put him on? I didn’t think micro entrepreneurs could get a kbis.

11

Hello Anna, Graham…

Am I hearing a weird tone here? Maybe i’m being overly sensitive?

I’m not trying to avoid anything…

I have a market stand 3 days a week - my husband ‘works’ at home renovating our house

My market stand is all above board, registered, marvellous - it is HIGHLY regulated work - subject at checks by inspectors, the local gendarmes and police and the Mairie/placier at each market

Lately, in the mornings, my husband comes with me and helps me unload my stuff and put it on tables and put up parasols. I’m waiting for a spinal op (no problem) so it’s helpful. I called this “putting up my stand”

The gendarmes told me in a nice way he ‘should be on my kbis’

ok. fine. more paperwork…

That’s it. End of. The quest. and the question of how…

I have a Kbis because they gave me one… and because without it I would not be able to run the stand since I need to show it to them every day I go to the market.

I have a carte de commerçant ambulant too, all issued by the CCI who registered me.

I haven’t a b8**dy clue if this is right or not - I’ve asked every single institution, body, group - and no one has been willing to help me…

That’s why I asked the question on survive france!!!

thanks all - please please feel free to offer advice, guidance or just plain old commiseration

12

Goodness me - sounds like they are running rings around you. If all he is doing is lending his wife a hand while she is “incapacitated” - then I really do think that “the powers that be” are going overboard.

OH became my “unofficial-official Driver” when I was unable to drive myself to meetings and all sorts of stuff. Often he would drive me and another person who did not drive. Once the word got out, OH would be invited inside (rather than wait in the car)… sometimes to join in site visits/tours … and was included in any refreshments etc after the meetings/events closed.

He was doing me a favour - coming to my aid - as all good husbands will.

13

No weird tone intended Teresa - I just wanted to point out that that whereas in the UK pretty much the only obligation business have is towards HMRC, in France income tax is only a small part of the picture, which you know only too well but which Graham seemed to not be acknowledging. The reason I thought this was worth pointing out is because all too often Brits are blissfully unaware of French labour laws and how easy it is to contravene them without realising it, because in the UK there are very few restrictions and as Graham said, as long as you pay your tax that’s all the authorities care about. Not so in France and it’s dangerous to assume that it is.

My question about the Kbis was a genuine question - all I knew about Kbis is that micro entrepreneurs registered as profession libérales can’t get them, or didn’t used to be able to. So either the rules have changed, or some activities can have them and some can’t.

l’m sorry I don’t have any specific advice to offer, all I can do is offer lots of commiserations.

14

Probably some forum members will remember several years ago a bar landlady in Brittany got into trouble with URSSAF for letting a regular customer collect empty glasses and bring them back to the bar. URSSAF said he was doing the job of a pot man and brought a case against her for using undeclared labour. To most Brits this would seem batshit crazy, and in fact a lot of locals thought URSSAF had gone too far that time, it’s an extreme example. But, a lot of things that may seem totally unjustifiable to a Brit, seem perfectly correct to the French because they do have very different labour laws and a different mindset.

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15

French folk feel that common sense needs to prevail - not just us Brits :hugs:

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16

Very true.
Have you asked your mayor, for instance, whether he thinks it’s common sense to give gendarmes discretion on when they apply the rules and when they turn a blind eye? Only I think most people’s common sense would tell them that that’s a dangerous path to set off down.

17

I think it would be a good idea to discuss at the Mairie - as I have already suggested higher up the thread.

and the Gendarmes are often more amenable and reasonable than folk might think… in my experience.

18

thanks Anna, thanks everyone…

yes Anna - but since it’s been ‘noted’ i have to comply…

the gendarmes pointed out that Tony - the husband - would be considered, is considered, a slave - since he is a family member, and i’m not paying him, and he has no rights regarding my ‘business’

yes. i can see this is true

yes. we have laughed loud and long

yes. this is the reason why it’s painful and difficult to start & run a small business in France

no. i haven’t reached the point of not caring - i need to try and figure out what paperwork would be correct.

the point is that

the gendarmes & various Mairie’s are of the opinion that be ‘just needs to be on the kbis’

so i think…

to get a kbis where it mentions him I need to make him a partner in the business

or employ him (let’s not go down that road)

but he can’t a partner and continue to hold his mason card / trade / auto-ent thing (isn’t that right Anna?)

so he needs to give all that up, i make him a partner (conjoint collaborator)

do all the papers with the greffe, apply for a new kbis

and jobs done?

BUT

the CCI - who are beyond UNHELPFUL AND THIS IS MY BEEF - (as i think it’s them who should help - but it’s e75 euro’s for a meeting)

have now said he needs to fill in a

p4

which says he is forever and definitively ceasing ALL ACTIVITE NON-SALARIEE in FRANCE

which i think is wrong?

oh grief, it’s too hot!

19

I don’t have any problem at all with the gendarmes, I think they’re well trained and they do their job in a professional way, and that’s exactly why you can’t expect them to bend the rules every time they feel compassion. Otherwise hardly anyone would get fined for traffic violations because very few people commit them on purpose and they’re usually quite upset when they realise they’re going to get a contravention. To go back to your example, if your OH had happened not to have a valid driving licence or not been insured to drive your car, would you have expected the gendarmes to turn a blind eye because he was doing you a favour?

20

Yes Stella,

I agree with you - I have done this…

they’re all nice and fine BUT papers are papers…

& it’s not a little Mairie here - but rather 3 big enough towns… 6,000 +

it’s very much not up for discussion