Hi first post so thank you
Is anyone in this position. My husband is self employed in UK. He only works in UK when he needs to as a top up to our rental income.
He does no other work than in the UK. He would like us to live in France and he would commute to UK as and when.
Does anyone know if we would be entitled to a UK workers S1.
I have asked IR UK but they won’t answer the question until we actually make the move to France where as we would like to know where we stand in advance. Thank u
Hi first post so thank you
IIRC an S1 is only issued to those in receipt of a UK State Pension (or in other exceptional circumstances) so I guess the answer to your question is no if he is not in receipt of the state pension. HMRC issue the S1 automatically after you have declared that you have left the UK (to live in France) permanently which you can do in a number of ways but principally you would need to complete the France-Individual form and have it stamped at your French tax office sending the English version to the UK tax authorities.
S1 is not accepted as Graham said.
When I finally manged to get one a couple of years back when we decided to move here permenant it was not possible.
They ask for it here quite a bit and honestly its a nightmare to get them to understand but there are quite a few english people that help with this though its now I went eventually
This is what I got for the overseas team
If your husband is paying contributions into the UK it is possible that he would be entitled to healthcare cover from the UK whilst living in France. However, It is not ourselves that would decide on his entitlement, it would be HM Revenue and Customs. He may be entitled to a worker’s S1 form which entitles him to healthcare cover in both countries. It is also possible, if your husband is granted an S1 form, he can add you as a dependent so that you can access the same healthcare rights in both countries as your husband. I would advise he contacts the S1 direct line at HMRC on (+44) 03000 555734.
There’s not a lot that can be added to your post. For a workers S1 (ie as a cross border worker) you need to fill in the application to HMRC. As said it’s their decision. It will depend on his working pattern and various other factors but usually, they will only issue an S1 if you return to the UK on a regular basis and spend significant time there (eg three days a week every week). If basically you live in France and only pop back to the UK occasionally I very much doubt you would get one, although they do look at each application and consider the individual circumstances so it’s always worth a try. But HMRC do realise how attractive it is to expats to keep their NHS cover when moving abroad, hence they are strict in applying the criteria and a lot of applications are turned down, so you can’t count on it. Safest is to plan on the basis you won’t get one, and look at it as a bonus if you do.
So in effect he would pay NI Contributions on his self employment salary tonthecUK Gov for nothing?
Sorry to the UK Gov for nothing ?
Pauline, you need to talk to HMRC. It will all depend on the circumstances. If he does continue to pay NICs then I believe it will count towards his pension entitlement, even if it doesn’t provide healthcare. But if he doesn’t keep a UK address and if he cuts his ties with the UK apart from going back to work there very occasionally, I don’t know if he would be allowed to keep his self employed status in the UK, if he is actually a self employed person and not a ltd co… Normally a self employed person’s business is based in the country where that person is resident, so he may be told to register a business in France, even though he goes back to the UK to actually do the work. Without knowing the full facts it’s impossible to second guess what the decision would be.
I have spoken to them but they won’t disclose anything until he completes a form the day he moves to France.
We would like to make an informed descion.
We have a bolt hole in UK where he stays when he works. He has sufficient NI for his pension but is under retirement age.
We really wanted a S1 to get healthcare in France.
Was it ever the case. Not unlike people who have no children pay tax for education services…
Once you move to live in France your UK social security payments will be void as far as health contributions are concerned and then you must register into the French system, even going back to the UK as self-employed will not make any difference.
We found it a grey area when we moved here 14 years ago but once you start filling forms in they then inform you that you are not covered and return all your n.i contributions which you have paid since you moved to live in France full time.
Have no worries in paying what is due but was wondering if we would pay NI in UK and social
Charges in France on his earned income.
Any body no any professional in the field I spoke to Blevins Franks bearing in mind my husbands UK income is only about 15k and they quoted 2500.00 for profeesional advice.
Unfortunately it doesn’t work like that, they won’t commit themselves in advance. They need to make an informed decision too, which is why they have to base their decisions on facts, not supposition.
Workers’ S1s are only issued in very specific circumstances. As said before, the safest bet for you is to assume you won’t get one and plan around that. Then if he does get one it’ll be a bonus. From what you’ve said I suspect it’s highly unlikely but that’s just my feeling.
If we could all cherry-pick I imagine most of us would like the UK to continue covering our healthcare in France, it would be cheaper for us. But when we decide to leave the UK, we have to accept that that that generally means giving up some or all of the rights and entitlements that are only available to UK residents, and often that includes the entitlement to “free” NHS healthcare, since essentially the NHS is residence-based.
One problem I see is that HMRC likes regular patterns and he seems not to be proposing any regular pattern of work, he can’t for instance say he’ll be in the UK for 12 working days per month. What if you find you don’t need to top up your rental income, will he not go back at all? In which case if he neither lives nor works in the UK during the year, there would be no reason at all to expect the UK to pay for your healthcare, would there?
Has he taken HMRC’s Statutory Residence Test? If not that might be helpful because basically it uses a lot of the same criteria HMRC will use in considering his application for an S1. You’ll find the SRT online. If he comes out as resident there is a chance he may be granted an S1, if he comes out as a leaver the chances are next to none.
But at the end of the day, state healthcare contributions in France aren’t at all expensive if you’re on a fairly modest income. I don’t see why it would be a deal-breaker.
Yes I had exactly the same experience
This advice doesn’t come cheap and you have to match that with the fact that even the big players live BF won’t be able to convince HMRC to a different view if the circumstances don’t justify it in their view.
I’m not an expert but possible options I see are:
He gets an S1, pays NICs in the UK which cover all healthcare (apart from any top up you decide to take out), and pays no social charges in France. Tax paid in the UK but DTA applies. I guess this is your ideal situation if you qualify.
He is refused an S1. He registers as self employed in France and pays French social contributions on the income. No extra social charges to pay in France, no NICs to pay in the UK. Not sure where you’d pay tax, you’d need to discuss thisboth with the fisc and with HMRC. Normally tax is paid where your bum is when you do the work but as with every rule, there are exceptions.
I’m not sure there’s a middle way, I think that if he’s refused an S1 then he won’t be allowed to keep paying NICs and he will be obliged to register his business in France,
I’m not sure there’s a middle way. Under EU rules you can’t belong to the social security systems of 2 EU states at the same time, so if he’s refused an S1 on the basis that he France’s responsibility then he comes out of the NHS and stops paying NICs. (He would have the option of paying voluntary contributions but since you say he already has his pension entitlement, probably he wouldn’t.) But, there are always exceptions.
Thanks for your comprehensive replies.
Guess I nor a risk taker and would rather know exactly what our position is should we make the move.
Being realistic, even if you’re able to establish exactly what your position would be in 2018 if you moved now, there would be no certainty that it would be the same after Brexit. Anyone whose life/work/ncome currenly has a frictionless overlap between the UK and the EU thanks to EU regs, may not find things so frictionless if/when EU regs no longer apply to certain areas.
Once you have retired (over UK state retirement age) and confirmed your permanent France address with documentation an S1 form will be issued by DWP International Health Department in Newcastle (same place as for the EHIC card). When you receive that, take it to your local CPAM state health assurance office (I am stiil waiting for my TIN tax number!) I found mine generally helpful after one or two glitches but you will need to speak French reasonably well or take a friend who does. It took about two months to receive my S1 fr0m Newcastle and about the same to be issued with my carte vitale. I have a serious long-term condition so my French medecin traitant (also my GP) very quickly processed ALD (Affection de longue durée exonérantes) which gives me 100% cover on medical costs for that condition. Surprisingly the DWP have also renewed my EHIC card until 2022 so they must know something about Brexit negotiations! This allows me emergency cover in other European members of the scheme. The S1 form also specifically says I am still entitled to NHS treatment in the UK if I choose.
This is not exactly correct… You can apply after the date you leave the UK but you would need to reference the date you actually left