I am searching for some help in my non-standard situation. Our family is planning to move to France this summer( still normal :)).
I do work as Seafarer (Geotechnical Engineer) on the Vessel. I usually work one month and then one month I am home. So in total I am working more then 183 days/year outside of any country… I am hired by the company only when I am offshore, so when I am home I am unemployed. My plan was to open self-employed ( auto-entrepreneur) businnes. Since I am not speaking any french I was seeking for some tax advisors/or someone whou could help what to do, but no luck. Does anyone has any idea/contact to someone who could know how to deal with Seafarers?
I am orginaly from Czech, my wife is Brazilian and we have child, who will have to go to school in France, so I need to be resident ( also Tax resident?) in France.
So my question is would be possible for me just to resgister/set business as ( auto-entrepreneur). If I understood correctly I would then have to pay around 25% ( Tax + Social contribution). I am not sure if I can have only one client ( Company who hires me - my Vessel). Would I be under liberal profession? How I would pay my contribution for the month when I am not working?
Is there some wisdom here who could direct me which way to go, in order to be legal ( and most beneficial for me ( Tax wise) ) and don’t mess it up. My yearly turnover would be within 60 k - 70 k EUR/Year.
No, you can’t use a self-employed setup to declare your earnings as an employee. Employment and self employment are not the same thing.
This page might help
In view of the “French decree” this seems to be something you need to discuss with your employer.
If doing one month on and one month off - isn’t there a possibility that you may actually be in your home country for 1 or 2 days more than 183 depending on how the months shape up?
I am aware that this would cause the inconvenience of having to pay tax.
I don’t see that 183 days is relevant in any way.
If the OP’s home is in France then he’s resident in France.
If he isn’t resident in France then how can his Brazilian wife live here?
If he’s resident in France then the French rules on social security for seafarers will apply. That surely is good news for him because it means his family will have healthcare.
I presume he’ll pay tax in the normal way, unless France has special rules for seafarers.
Yes, France probably does too, so those are the rules that will apply and I would be surprised if the rules are based purely on 183 days. The OP should ask at a French tax office. But I think he should discuss the social security implications with his employer first to make sure they’re happy about employing a French resident.
First of all Thanks for the replies! You can’t imagine how painful it is to find any info.I had to read the article which you have entered before like 3 times…
You are right that in order to live in France we want to register and be residents ( also for tax/social) in France. Although my wife is Family member of EU citizen( therefore she should be ok to live in FR) she as you said still needs to register in FR.
Would you know where I can see the information for people who work offshore? Or what would be best option(path) for me in order to somehow pay taxes/social in France.
Because I couldn’t find any relevant info, therefore i thought the easiest would be self-employmend. My contract is always between me and company in Singapore. I guess thats why i get paid without any tax/social and is on me to do it in my country of residence (which i am trying somehow achieve).
Many times there are freelancers (usually from UK) who provide very similar job as I do and they get almost identical contract, therefore i was hoping for ME plan would work. My plan was that i would also offer my services to other vessels/companies.
To be honest, they somehow don’t have any issue what kind of residency I am from.
Also is all bit weird, I guess since they provide me contract From Singapore where I guess the workers rights are not same as EU. As I said when I am off the vessel, I am unemployed without anything( meaning health/social etc).
Would be an option to ask in Tax office in France?
Also lots of people applying the 183 rule. I guess i could the same because for sure I wont be in France more 183 days/ year, but because I do have family and I need to be resident then I guess the rule is out of discussion? Or would be possible to pay social and taxes in Czech ( where i am from ) and be based in Fr where my family would live? I doubt it and I feel I should pay taxes etc in country where I live…
Somewhere there will be a rule that fits your situation, it’s just a case of finding it. Asking the French tax people would probably save you a lot of searching.
As you say, your wife has the right to live here as the spouse of an EU citizen exercising freedom of movement to live in France - but if you yourself are’nt resident in France then she has no rights here.
Every country has its own laws on tax and residency, you can’t assume that because one country has a certain rule and allows certain things, another country will do the same.
France draws a clear distinction between employed and self employed
The factors URSSAF look at include level of supervision and independence. in a contract with a client, you specify your fee; you decide when, where and how you will provide the service, ie you choose your own hours/days when you will work; you provide the equipment you need to perform the task; you decide what specific tasks you will accept and what you won’t; normally you have the right to subcontract the work; and your performance has a direct bearing on the success or failure of your own business - if your performance is poor your business will suffer, if you perform outstandingly your business will prosper. Clients come and clients go but the success or failure of your business is not dependent on any one of your clients, it’s dependent on your own business skills. In an employment contract the employer sets the salary, tells you the hours/days you will work; the employer provides the equipment and instructs the employee on how to carry out the work, and the employee can’t pick and choose which tasks they accept; you can’t subcontract; and your efforts have a direct impact on your employer’s business not your own - if your performance is outstanding your employer profits, if your work is bad your employer has to mitigate the consequences, and the existence of your business is dependent on the existence of your employer’s business decisions which you don’t have any say in.
On those criteria, could you justify classing the company you work for as a client rather than an employer?
I am trying to read the info which you have added, thanks for that. Is bit confusing since is all related to Fisherman. Does that acctually matter if I work offshore or not? Because we are acctually civil engineering company who works on the ship :).
Related to the contract, I have to read it properly. But it could be either way, in theory if after one month they are not happy with me, they wont call me again. Therefore is almost as client rather then employer. It is very specific situation.
I feel very bad that I take so much of your time, and your replies so elaborated. Almost feel like I would like to hire you as advisor…
If you would have time and willing to reply, since I explained my situation a bit, what would you do in my situation?
And last question, are the tax authorities people approachable , I could try to send them email but I would be surpirsed if they would reply to non french email? Or I am wrong?
Don’t think I can suggest anything else to be honest, as you say your situation is quite specific.
Certainly I would try sending an email to the tax office, but in French would be better. You may have to be patient for a reply.
Or, next time you are ashore in France, you could try to go in person?
I am not living in France yet so visiting is bit off, I guess I will try send an email and see.
I am very sorry but what would be the conclussion, you not suggest to do ME/AE. So then I need to pay income tax and social contribution. Would that be only that? Get some tax advisor or someone who could help me fill the claim? Would that even possible, since the company I work with just pays me in Gross…
From what you said maybe micro entrepreneur isn’t impossible. Reading your first post I thought it was an ongoing contract and the arrangement was for you to work for a month and then take a month off but if it’s separate contracts, maybe that makes it different. I really don’t know, I’m sorry.
Possible one way forward might be to ask the EU. Outline your situation and ask how tax and healthcare would work if you move to France. Tell them you’re finding it very hard to find any guidance. They may not be able to answer, but they should be able to tell you where to go for information.
I have contacted them in the past with a couple of queries and both times I received a reply very promptly.
You practice your art like a neurosurgeon, Anna. Undaunted by the most unusually complicated presentation, even relishing the challenge. Surefooted, unflappable, enquiring at each stage of the operation, thinking several steps ahead, cognisant always of the bigger picture, with a very delicate but assured touch, radiating confidence but with huge humility, and wise enough to maintain the necessary detachment from the work. Bold!
And you always remember the big, lumbering and unfriendly polar bears* who contribute little to any success you deliver, but like to be acknowledged as part of the landscape, and love your breezy “Hello Bears!”
*Every Operating Theatre has its polar bears, in boots, who grunt.
Why thank you Peter. Welcome to my fan club (it’s brand new, you’re its first member )
Do you have copyright on that purple passage, or can I nick it and use it verbatim in my next job application ?
The simple answer if you register via URSAFF although not as Liberal Professional - think there’s a specific category so you link with ENIM who deal with social payments etc for seafarers. You then register with ENIM as a self employed seafarer.
There will be maritime lawyers or seafarers associations who can talk you through it - but you’ll need to work out the French first to then Google the right question. There are slight issues (one client isn’t how AE works)- but I think its one of those blind spots everyone ignores to solve the underlying problem.
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