Survive France Property Shop chat

Simon, with respect mate - I worked for an agent immobilier who ended up in prison because of dodgy practices and fraudulent behaviour. A notaire was also struck off !

Brian is right to indicate that there are unscrupulous agents out there ... but few unscrupulous agencies. To understand, one has to differentiate between an 'agent commercial' and an 'agent immobilier'.

To become an agent immobilier one has to have a law degree and/or have worked 10 years in an estate agent's office. After a series of verifications, checks and inquests the PrĂ©fecture gives an agency the right to sell property: this takes the form of an official card which is valid for 10 years. The agency must then be insured by specialist insurers and, if letting property, arrange a €110k bond with the bank. If the agency tricks clients in any way (taking commissions where not due etc) then the PrĂ©fecture will (and does) take away their card, and thus their right to work.

Agents commerciaux, on the other hand, are sales people who the Agent immobilier may mandate to search for and accompany potential buyers. They are often paid solely from the commission they bring in. They may be from any walk of life and have no formal legal or even sales training. At worst, they can be uncontrollable electrons libres who will do anything in their power to get a sale, rip off a client or fool their masters (the Estate Agent). At best (like Brian's wife I suspect) they are doing the job as well as, or better, than the Agent Immobilier herself.

Normally, the Estate Agent will try and control what his agents commerciaux are up to. But often they will turn a blind eye to their dodgy practices as long as they are bringing in sales. Sometimes the agents commerciaux are allowed to draft their own mandats: this is where problems can arise and they can slip in clauses which are not totally correct (eg: buyer pays the commission). Don't expect the notaire to verify and chastise these agents! They are only too happy to get a sale and their commission too!

So the moral of the story is to check with the 'agent' you're working with to see if he/she is an agent immobilier (with the Carte Professionnelle in his name) or an agent commercial ... in which case you might want to check with the Estate Agent he's working for to see if he's a bona fide operator.

For myself, I don't use agents commerciaux at all as I prefer to get to know each customer personally so that I can better adapt the offer. Means a lot of legwork but it pays in the end.

I do think overall the buyer ends up paying the agency fees so you've not technically been had, Nick, but I think a peculiar way of doing things. If a house is advertised as FAI then the fees are included in the price, although the price has probably been jacked €XX to cover these in any event so basically you're paying for them. If not marked FAI then supposedly the buyer is liable to pay the commission. Whether that can be upheld in court I don't know but it seems to be the 'done thing'.

Val, it's in the agents interest to provide an honest & decent service to his clients ie. the seller AND the buyer. In most cases in France it's the buyer who pays his or her commission. The agent works for him/herself at the end of the day so it's important to provide as good a service as possible if only to get a decent reputation and knock-on customers from past clients.

Sorry Charente was 2002.

I’ve been had then. It says in both my actes definitfs:
Il sera du en sus du prix par l’acquĂ©reur la somme de xxxx reprĂ©sentant le montant de la commission d’agence due Ă  (name of agency.

Clearly the buyer, in this case me, paid.

One was for a house in Charente in 2012 and the other for a flat in Paris in 2011.

Every other mandate I have signed has be:
Honoraires Ă  la charge de l’acquĂ©reur.

Not saying your wrong, more like I’ve been had.

Simon is describing what I have picked up from my OH. On the agent and vendor business, there are, I am sure he will agree, some agents (freelancers especially) who prey on ignorant foreigners in order to get a sales commission from both. It may not be many of them but agent it is something my wife has experienced where a UK owner is selling after a very few years then questions the vendor paying the commission because when they bought they did. Using the same notaire and a bit of discrete examination has revealed that the vendor paid as normal, then going back to the then buyer it transpires they made out a cheque in the UK or transferred money directly to the agent for an agreed percentage 'commission'. That has not been a one off. We also paid no commission because we found that our 'agent' appeared to be working for an agency but when we contacted them found out they had dismissed her and they she had been selling on the back of their ads by adding viewings to the ones requested, which is not unusual, through which she got her own sales although she showed the buyers agency material. Peter is quite right too on agent behaviour and practice. My wife., for instance, follows through after completion to help fix up builders, electricians, etc, with planning applications and other matters for a while. The outcome has been buyers refer her on to other would be buyers, sellers get to hear what she does and go to her. The outcome is that she is well informed, can give advice, work with the notaires, geometres, the DPU people, SPANC and whoever else thus have a complete service available for her own convenience as well as everybody concerned. Some agents do nothing much.

I hear and learn a lot, but to be honest I would not do it myself because I do not have what it takes.

Liz

We are seriously considering moving back to Wales. Where is your home?

Peter

Hi all. James and I wanted to gauge the amount of interest before we decide on the next step. Clearly there is a LOT of interest and a lot of people wanting to buy / see / swap / rent etc. It will be a while before we get the new section up and running so please do feel free to add the properties on here in the meantime. I know it's not perfect and I know they will get bumped down ( but there's nothing to stop you all reposting them every few days - there's no problem with that) and people who are following the thread will get notifications so they should see new properties as they are added.

And please do keep your thoughts / comments coming so that we can get the format right. Thanks! x

Re: Simon Oliver's comment: - as I am still in the UK (desperately trying to sell here in Wales), I have done a lot of my homework on SFN. It was recommended to me by another Brit doing their own research. I think that there actually a lot of us waiting to sell here who are avid readers of SFN, and a property shop inc long term rent and properties would be great - I am a little confused at people posting properties now as I thought this would be on a separate page? I have been reading them all however! Thanks everyone for posting properties thus far.

Nick, it's basic contract law. A mandat is a contract between Agent and Vendor. They agree that the agent will sell the property and get a commission. They agree that the vendor will pay this commission upon completion to the agent (through the notaire). Now, they could stipulate that a third party - the buyer - will pay this commission. But this is poor law and cannot be upheld in court, because the buyer is not party to the contract. He is not present at its drafting, he is not a signatory and therefore it is not binding upon him. That's why most serious agents insist that the vendor pays the commission.

Of course, in the end, the buyer funds everything: purchase price AND commission.

Sure do Nick, it is our main income. A sale was completed this morning and what will come worked out, which will come via the notaire after the payment is made and agency/agent commissions and her bit taken off before the vendor gets it.

Sarah - nice post. When I was looking to move out here 3 years ago I spent literally months trawling through what seemed, in numerous cases, to be out of date, information-lacking property particulars. And that was when I was buying. Looking for a rental property must be just as hideous.

As Catharine says above, I think the main idea is for this to be for private individuals who want to buy/sell, rent/let, or their friends and family. I think private sellers may be much more inclined to include current information, plenty of good photos, be accurate in their descriptions than many of the sites I ended up trawling through.

As you say, anyone looking for a long term let, whether prior to moving out full time or because of a job opportunity etc, may find a property listing on SFN invaluable, plus they can contact the member concerned for any more detail they need without having to go through a third party.

Do they?

Vendor pays. It is an agreed commission.

Who pays the agency fees usually?

Sorry Peter, but I would remind you that an agent in France is working for the seller, not for the buyer. Some agents are very kind to would-be buyers and move heaven and earth to find them what they want, but technically, they are working for the seller.

Spoken by a true agent Simon !

I did your job in the '80s & '90s in the south-west also so I feel I was a kind of pioneer of the 'modern' immobilier services to the UK buyers. Not pretentious but true I believe. You're right when you say the agents generally get a bad press and quite rightly justified from what i've seen lately as I try to sell my property. It doesn't make all agents bad of course but clients have become wary of being ripped off by over-zealous agents who it seems, do very little to earn their commissions. This is a generalisation as I know of many top agents intent on giving great service.

I think there is a very long waiting list of potential customers who can't make their dream move to France for whatever reason. What's certain is there are hundreds of brit & dutch property owners in France looking to sell up or sell on to buy another french property. This is where an SFN site may be of help. Why shouldn't the SFN be linked to an agency or publication like the FPN or yourself or Gregor H or another reputable agency. ? That's business.

The professionalism of some agents of all nationalities has to be questioned. Some, quite clearly aren't cut out for the job. Clients want someone they feel they can trust so maybe something like SFN as an intermediary, if marketed correctly may just be able to give that little bit of security, or am I being unrealistic ?

But Simon, it is not necessarily a case of providing this service to current SFN members. The aim is not just about sales but also long term lettings as I understand it. I found this site when I was preparing to relocate to France and needed info. Prior to that time I had spent almost 2 months day in and day out trying to find long term lets on the internet and visited many outdated postings and sites and ended up with very little choice at the end of the day. Had there been a decent site where there were many long term lets (for me I needed a 12 month let while I found my way around), it would have made my life so much easier. It also brings in more users to SFN as those searching for property to rent or buy while still living in the UK or elsewhere will find it. It is simply not always an option to trawl through literally hundreds of agents sites or the other sites when for many, their French may not be up to it.

Anglo Info are doing it although I do doubt they have done their research with regards to pricing. To me it seems an ideal direction of exploration for SFN as it is certainly something new expats may need and this would be one of the first places they could find it.

The property page is probably a good idea although I have doubts as to the reach of SFN: are readers and members of SFN really looking to buy property in France? From what I can read, most members are very happy where they are, love living here and are always ready to vaunt the advantages of their situation over former lives.

The other doubt I have is the anti-agent sentiment. One shouldn't throw out all estate agents with the dirty bath water! There appears to be a feeling that agents do nothing while taking large sums of money from poor property-owners. This may be true in Paris but is it the case in the SW? There are agents who abuse commission rates and charge exorbitant percentages. It's simple enough to refuse to sign their mandates if the rate is more than 3 or 4% maximum.

If you mandate an agent (with a non-exclusive contract) to sell your property then you have absolutely nothing to lose. You may continue to sell the house privately or ask other agents to do so. If an agent presents you with a buyer - and that buyer eventually purchases the property - then it is normal that the agent should get the commission. If you find a buyer then the agent gets nothing. The only point where there is friction is if the buyer contacts the agent - presses him/her for more precise information like exact location - and then contacts the vendor directly. In this case it is up to the agent to communicate a list of all contacts that he has had prior to them contacting the vendor. It can be messy however and, as an agent, I must say I just walk away from these situations. If the buyer is into all these sort of dirty tricks then I don't want to deal with him: he'll be trouble all along the line.

The agent's usefulness comes in many forms: they can reach places where individual vendors cannot (ads in Scandinavian newspapers, business contacts in Paris, networks in the Riviera etc), their websites are better rated than single, made-to-sell specific sites, and, above all, they can filter out all the jokers, clowns, tourists, curious and insolvent 'buyers' whom nobody wants to see. An agent will do all this work (as well as photographing your property, putting it on her website(s), sending out newsletters and alerts to a mailing list of buyers, accompanying visitors, often on weekends and holidays) for just the 'promise' of a hypothetical future return. In reality, he/she has a 10% chance of selling your property - less perhaps if there are a number of agents mandated to sell the same property - and if the vendor is Internet-savvy.

I'm not saying that agents should be allowed to use the SFN property Page - they have their own networks - but that SFN members should be aware that not all agents are useless blood-suckers. Agents do have their usefulness, especially in a falling property market like today's, and they can help you.