Theft within family

Legal Advice
1

Hello everybody

I’m posting this on behalf of friends in the hope of finding some advice for them.

They believe that their son’s wife has hacked into their back accounts and moved large amounts of money into an account of their own. They do not know if the son is aware as he refuses to discuss it.

They have been told by the gendarmes that there is no such thing as theft between family members.

Is that a fact? If so, does a daughter-in-law count as family?

Thanks for any help, it is causing enormous distress.

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Is it thought that the son’s wife (weird way to say daughter in law) had obtained the account information and associated passwords and used those to access the account via the bank’s online portal in the normal way, but without the account holder’s permission?

Or is she alleged to have to have actually pulled some NSA/Anonymous level shenanigans to gain access to the account via the banks internal systems?

Either way, the bank should have a theft/fraud team that can look into this.

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3

Yes there is a law about family immunity, but I think it only applies to between married couples. Will go and look…..

Have looked, and it is wider than husband and wife. This is quite a good article, but doesn’t specifically mention in laws. Or whether this would be considered an exception. Our ex-neighbour’s daughter stole from her after the death of her father and seemed to get away with it even tho’ it meant our neighbour was penniless.

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4

Yes and quite possibly.

How do they know it is the daughter in law? If they are sure enough it is her to go to the police, then there must be some evidence. Change password, then lock her in a half nelson to get the money back. Simples :grinning:

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To expand @JaneJones and provide an authority, the legislation is here:

https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI000042193493/2020-08-01

The provision does not apply to in-laws, and it applies - in the source quoted - to theft.

From what I can see (my question to GGemini was “are computer misuse offences under Penal Code Articles 323-1 to 323-8 covered by the family exception provisions of Article 311-12?”), family members involved in hacking and allied offences do not receive the same protection.

We don’t know what, or how good, your friends’ evidence is. If there are unauthorised transfers, have they spoken to their bank? What does the bank say? That would be the logical first step.

As you can perhaps see, and depending on the facts, the police may look at computer misuse offences instead of theft.

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6

I’ve no idea what it’s called in France, but fraudulently obtaining funds using electronic devices (aka cybercrime or hacking) is called Wire Fraud in the USA and it’s a felony (for us little people anyway).

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The Penal Code provisions I mentioned cover most of what you’d expect: Unauthorized Access, System Interference, Data Interference.

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Thank you. I am only going on what I have been told. As far as I know, the daughter-in-law obtained access to the accounts via the online portal, without the account holder’s permission.

The lady at the bank threw up her hands in the air and didn’t seem to know what to do.

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How dreadful. What people will do for money. :frowning:

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The money has been transferred by the daughter-in-law into her own account. The bank statements show the evidence. The gendarmes simply said there was nothing to be done, no law against it if it involves family members.

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From what I have been told, computer passwords have been hacked in order to gain access to the account and transfer funds to the person’s own personal account. Printed bank statements clearly show this.
The bank does not appear to have been of any help, and neither have the gendarmes.

Unfortunately the ‘victims’ don’t speak French, and I wonder if this has any bearing on the attitude of the authorities. Do they regard it as a problem between immigrants for them to sort out between themselves?

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Thank you.

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One would have thought that, if this happened recently, the portal’s IT folks to pull up the IP address of the device which was used to make the fraudulent transfer.

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There’s nothing like money, power or alcohol to bring out someone’s true nature.

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15

Very true that!

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Sadly I think this may have a bearing on it. Presumably their main interest is getting the money back so perhaps pressure the bank more than the gendarmes? After all would they go to court (in French) to bear witness against their DIL?

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It was truly shocking! Our neighbour isn’t the brightest button in the box, so is pretty helpless and after the theft ran up huge debts. She now has to live on €50 a week, and is taken to the bank once a week to get her money as not allowed a bank card or cheque book. A rota of neighbours then take her food shopping as she refuses to go to the food bank. Pretty miserable existence.

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I’m wondering if France Services could help. They could certainly access the relevant parts of the law to confirm daughter in law is not covered by family protection.

Personally I’d be a bit worried that she might scarper and leave the son in the lurch too. Also, getting the money blocked from her moving it elsewhere. This is rhe sort of queation I’d ask France Services to look at first as time may be of tbe essence.

Then once France Servicea has checked the law and advised on any protective action while this is being sorted out, the next question is who can, and how, to approach her bank to get the money frozen if it’s still in her account (probably this is via their own bank but ask) , or how to secure whatever she had that could repay the money, while action is taken. It may be that denying the transactions initially with own bank could get the money suspended at both ends for a period.

Is the daughter in law French?

Are they absolutely certain, snd sticking to it, that they kept access codes secure at all times? The bank will push hard on this and they’ll have to stick to their guns.

Are you in your mind sure that if they think this has happened, there is no other explanation than theft? And are they absolutely sure it’s the daughter in law…is there any other possibility. The son may be involved, however painful this is. But step #1 is ro officially deny / dispute the transactions.

I’d leave the son out of it for now and not inform him if he’s being unhelpful.

As others have said getting which device was used, checked, might help, that can be done by bank’s IT. Also do they have any proof that they were not in a position or location at the time transactions were done, to have done them as this would help.

But I think the first thing is to get the question of family immunity removed and to formally deny tbe transactions with own bank and then if they’re very sure, make an official accusation.

Speed is of the essence and I’d make sure France Services tells how to make a complaint to gendarmes and both banks that they cannot ignore and that will force them to look at it. Ie what legislstion to quote, also send LRAR’s etc.

Keep a timeline with exact time, place, date, method of contact with anyone about this, what was said on either side.

There may be time limits so I’d want to get into the position of sending LRAR’s to banks and whatever method of complaint gendarnes can’t ignore or deny, asap. You may have to complain within x days or hours so even if I might have to send a further LRAR later, I’d be prepared to send starting ones to each (bank(s), whatever makes it impossible for gendarmes to ignore) now. I am pretty sure it’s called “Faire Opposition” on tbe transactions, to their own bank and there is a procedure in the t’s and c’s of the account for this, and possibly something to click in the app.

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Don’t you have to pay for that?

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No, not with my bank, I would doubt if generally chargeable. Ir’s just getting the transactions formally marked as disputed. Like everything else in France, you have to follow whatever steps are laid down.

They could ask their bank what is tbe process to faire opposition on the transactions and state the urgency but I’d absolutely check the small print of the ts and cs as to how faire opposition must be done and make sure you do that too after having verbally let them know and told them which transactions you are disputing.

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