Thunberg Mark II (Gobbledygook free zone please)

Peter, I think that the doctors caring for Tafida would be, and would be correct in being, pretty affronted by the accusation that - like some dis-functioning gadget they think that she needs to be “got rid of”.

One of the hardest things in medicine is to know when further treatment is futile and not in the interests of the patient - do not underestimate the emotional burden of such a decision unless you have had to make it personally, vanishingly few doctors make that sort of decision lightly.

OK, I’d half agree with that - the body’s natural ability to heal is a huge factor in recovering from any illness - but does the body naturally excise a cancer or is it the surgeon? If the sepsis is overwhelming does the body naturally manufacture broad spectrum antibiotics to overcome it?

And where doctors cannot heal they can treat, ameliorate and palliate - adding years to life and life to years.

Your comment seems to relegate the medical profession to a very minor role in healing and the management of illness. That might have been fair in the middle ages, the Victorian era or even in the first half of the 20th century but it is increasingly a false view of medicine and what it can achieve.


Having worked on and under the sea for most of my working life, my conclusion is that mankind is f*@k#=. The changes I have witnessed in +30 years and the obvious/ natural intention of man to keep breeding exponentially leads to me to believe there is absolutely no hope.

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I accept your criticism, Paul, and my rather bilious commentary was to some extent provoked by what I thought was the obstinate refusal of the medical team to countenance the child’s transfer to an Italian hospital which was willing to admit her and care for her, in line with the anguished parents’ wishes.

I can’t see that anything would have been lost by their acquiescing to and cooperating with that request, and the sticking point IMO was possibly medical hubris, and possibly a wish not to set an institutional precedent for future cases of a similar kind.

I have nursed brain damaged people over several years including a young man who tried unsuccessfully to commit suicide by injecting himself with canine insulin. I was his specialist carer for six years, and know how fraught decisions are about life, death, resuscitation and the likelihood of any degree of recovery. It took a huge amount of resource (my part was insignificant in the overall scheme of things) to ensure my patent’s life was not cut off for want of same, but the decision to protect him despite his poor prognosis was IMO the only right one.

I also know that how medical decisions are made is seldom open to full scrutiny and it is proper, if not popular, to expose to the wider gaze decisions that are not always as clear as to their justification as they could or should be.

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Do you have a further perspective you feel able to share here Grant…???

How your 30 years on and under the sea makes you feel that mankind is fucked…???

The case of Tafida reminds me a little of Alfie Evans albeit a different religion…I thought in the case of Alfie that the parents should be allowed to do whatever they felt was necessary leave no stone unturned and I feel the same about Tafida’s parents…

I know I often have conflicting views where “healing” is concerned and a propensity towards natural healing modalities but I’ve watched many documentaries involving surgery…

One that always springs to mind is the fistula hospital in Ethiopia…there are many gifted surgeons and doctors all over the world and many operating under extreme conditions…

@Helen6 asks “How your 30 years on and under the sea makes you feel that mankind is fucked…?”

Made me wonder too, Helen.:thinking:

And I can’t get past the stupid idea I have that it’s either getting too wet, or an overdose of salt. Please forgive me :thinking::frowning:

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It’s an immense subject Pete…and why is it that our oceans are saltwater…???

I think that the medical profession has, rightly, been criticised for too much willingness to play god - perhaps more true in the past than now but true nonetheless.

However, I think we should not lose sight of the fact that the medical profession is almost uniquely equipped to see the bigger picture in a way that a patient’s loved ones cannot.

Seeking review in the courts is, clearly, the right approach. They are, in fact, the only body which can override a doctor’s view of what is in the patient’s best interest - and I can’t recall a time when a case has come into wider public exposure that I thought the court’s view was seriously misjudged. In this case I think I would side with Mr Justice MacDonald’s view that the move is unlikely to cause Tafida additional suffering and if there is chance of benefit - why not?

But even though siding with the parents the judge noted that there is actually little chance of significant improvement - certainly there seems no chance of independent living (or even respiration) - children’s brains can be remarkable, plastic, things but if there has been no improvement in 8 months I am not sure that the Italian doctor’s view that “she could emerge from her coma in a few months” will prove correct.

The result, I suspect, is that her parents will destroy their own lives in persuit of treatment for their daughter. I haven’t been able to figure out from the reports whether she has siblings but I hope not as they will not receive the love and nurture they require while Tafida remains in her present state. Of course such considerations are for the court - the doctors should focus on the interests of the patient.

Some further notes on the judgement

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The exploitation of the worlds oceans carries on despite all the warnings. The human race seems unable to help itself from destroying/ unbalancing ecosystems under the sea and on land, over fishing, pollution, industrial mono-culture agriculture etc. For my part, only 20 years ago at this time of year when steaming back to harbour after a days commercial fishing I would be passing through “rafts” of seabirds 000s strong, that years adults and young feeding furiously. Now there are literally a handful of birds, I dont see the same number of dolphins, whales and the catch on my deck that I have exploited from the sea is smaller in size and lesser in weight. The human race is too clever, too resourceful and too inventive for its own good.


I know almost nothing about chemistry (got a couple of combined sciences ‘O’ levels in 1953 while John Dalton and Sir Humphrey Davey were still alive, I think :thinking::smiley:), but I surmise that salt does not degenerate into anything else, so what is formed from the union of sodium and chlorine lasts for ever, and dissolves easily in water.

I don’t know at what point water can dissolve no more salt, but it looks like salt has the upper hand!

Chemists and water experts to the rescue please!

Thank you Paul.

The notes make for fascinating reading.

No mention anywhere about the weighty matter of the cost of keeping the child alive in intensive care for an indefinite time when all hospitals are strapped for cash and facing a drain on expert critical care staff (including EU cadres) as a result of the Brexit chaos.

I don’t think it’s snide or unfair to reference this issue, because I know from experience it figures in cases like this, but is not something that dares speak its name nowadays, if ever it did.

I’ve got some hopes, a few, pinned on that thought. ‘Too clever’ could mean ‘too clever to allow idiotic mistakes and carelessness of the past, to screw up much more of the future’, or …too clever… ‘to allow the mindless maniacs that care for zip, but cash, to carry on wrecking everything’.

Thanks for the reply Grant…

Do you feel it’s the human race in general or the positions that many people find themselves in due to circumstances beyond their control and that the mismanagement of resources happens on a level that most of us aren’t involved in…???

What waters were you fishing in if you don’t mind me asking…???

It always strikes me as odd that we are surrounded by vast amounts of water that is undrinkable and then the corporate control over water that is drinkable…

There are methods of desalination and you would think that these projects would solve our planet’s seeming lack of drinkable water…but as always seems to be the case desalination projects are “cost prohibitive”…too expensive…cost too much money…

It isn’t just expensive in terms of money, it is horrifically expensive in ecological terms, quite apart from anything else, if you take the salt out of the water, what do you then do with that salt?


I don’t know Vero…use it on the roads in winter…??? Uk usually grinds to a halt after the first snowfall…:grinning:

Now there is your perfect drinking water source ( no salt to remove) only problem is we don’t get much of it here in the Dordogne! :cloud_with_snow::snowflake:

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I just typed a long reply/post, then read it and deleted it as probably a bit too opinionated, as, as individuals there’s fuck all we can do that will make any difference. I recycle, don’t eat fish or red meat (often), tried to be self sufficient as far as electricity was concerned - thank you préfet de la creuse, but it’s all a much too late miniscule drop in a very big ocean. Too much money, power and greedy people in the world, it’s almost impossible to stop state sponsored pollution, deforestation or ocean pillaging. Think the human race may be well and truly fucked in a century or 2, no matter what international environmental “solutions” are agreed.
I honestly do hope I’m wrong


And the run-off poisons everything :cry:

I came across this…a letter to Greta…

The takeaway point for me was that “Big Climate” as she called it is a 1.5 trillion dollar industry…