Time for the EU to curb US arrogance?

Having shouldered the refugee burden of the disastrous US foreign policy in the M/E (which was born out of a their disastrous policy in Afghanistan and the own goal of 9/11) why are we allowing the US to negotiate on our behalf with Russia?

Kennedy was lauded for standing up to the USSR in the Cuban missile crisis, why should Russia sit back now and watch NATO attempt to encircle them? How would the yanks feel about Russian missiles in Mexico?

I’m pissed off with the yanks focussing on their old enemy , Russia, when though avarice they are daily strengthening the most dangerous regime in the World, China.

NATO has run its course, the EU needs to tool up rapidly.


Trouble is that by the time the EU formulates a response, whatever the Russians intend to do with Ukraine will be done and dusted.
Anyway, it is difficult to see the EU getting all bold and brave on this issue when they know very well that all the Russians have to do is turn off the gas and it’s game over.


I’m fairly sure the US is negotiating on their own behalf with the occasional nod to Europe, mostly because Russia is sure that Europe is toothless and gutless. If there were a war then the US can afford a belligerent attitude because all the collateral damage is on someone else’s land.

The lesson Liz Truss might remember are those of Salisbury and Litvinenko (sp?) in London - there was a little noise but nothing visibly happened.

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You’re right. We need an EU army now.

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To do what exactly?

There are plenty of nation states with armies. I just don’t think Europe will stand up to Russia in any meaningful way, whatever they do. Refusing to buy gas and cancelling the pipeline would be an effective threat, for example.

We have one already, it’s called NATO.

US foreign policy (post Marshall Plan) has produced a complete mess everywhere it has had any traction, hasn’t it? - and even the Marshall Plan had many downsides (facilitating fascism in Portugal, for example).

As you mentioned in another thread, John, it was the US intervention in support of the Mujahideen that came back to bite them on 9/11 - what is less well recognised but equally clear to those (like myself) that actually worked on the US funded ‘transition’ to capitalism in Eastern Europe is that the American economists advising the new governments did not understand capitalism, and played a very large role in facilitating the oligarchies that ultimately produced Putin. Sow the wind…

Continental Europe has almost always tried to take a far more sensible approach - not only in Eastern Europe and Eurasia, but also for example to the Iraq War (France and Germany especially), the Libyan misadventure, Israel/Palestine, etc…
The EU is a great experiment - in genuine multinational or world government - but it is developing politically out of economic co-operation, and (in part because it was held back by the likes of the UK) is perhaps not yet really ready for co-operative foreign policy?

I still struggle to believe that the US repeated the same mistake they made in the Far East in WW2 in the Middle East in the 1980s.

Mind you, if the Russians had read any Kipling, they might have stay out of Afghanistan.

No explanation for why the British Army thought going back for a third loss of blood and treasure was a good idea either.

I think the US thinks NATO is their’s.


Considering they do all the heavy lifting and the rest haven’t paid their full dues in decades, I can’t really argue with them for having a “NATO is us and the Brits” attitude.

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And the “east” probably rightly thinks NATO is a bit disjointed (is france in or out at the moment?).

France has only ever been half-in NATO. It was a member in theory but outside the joint military command until about 10 years ago, and I believe is still outside the nuclear command. Macron’s relatively independent Europe-first stance is I think just a continuation of France’s historic ambivalence.

Russia will turn off the gas to bring pressure on Europe to tow their line BUT Europe is ram jam full of Russian owned properties and assets. The rich influential Russians get their Roubles out of Russia as fast as they possibly can in case they fall out of favour. So turn off the gas scenario would be an impetus for Europe to financially freeze or even confiscate Russian assets. Using hob nail booted troops to trample over Eastern Europe is a blunt instrument on both sides. Better to keep the likes of Ukraine a neutral buffer state where they can determine their own policy and keep Russia and Nato out. European Army - that has to be a joke, can you just imagine the decision command making process.

I understood that there was a gentleman’s agreement when Germany reunified that Russia wouldn’t create any waves if there was no further eastward expansion of NATO.
However Putin is following Stalin’s line which started with the Yalta agreement being ignored and taking control of countries, particularly Poland, when free and democratic elections were supposed to be allowed to happen. They installed their own puppet government and refused access to UK and US representatives.
He wants the USSR back.

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I don’t think he has ever made a secret of wanting that.

Yes - this is common knowledge in Russia but barely ever mentioned in the west - it is seen as a huge betrayal, and is I think a significant factor in Russian public backing for Putin’s stance.


I should not be surprised if the Russian people see the expansion of NATO towards their border in the same way we saw the annexation of eastern Europe by Russia, the irony being completely lost on them, and also the not especially subtle difference for people under NATO instead of communism. Neither west nor east have been reluctant to meddle in the affairs of other nations, always to the detriment of those nations, even though both regimes brought some benefits.

German navy chief resigns over Ukraine comments

Fzcinating to watch the recent Commons Debate where Truss was asked by Labour, SNP and Liberals several times for the Government to stop the Oligarch money laundering in London. In Johnsonian style she simply ignored the questions and answer came there none.