Website for the WFP Home Truths

General Discussion
21

Martin Styles, Please show me where the connexion between Newton and Stewart and the SI has been tested ‘by the appropriate authority’, as you say. As far as I, and those with much more expat campaigning experience than myself, are concerned we have not seen any kind of ruling, yet - The Commission is considering if the action by the UK Government is illegal, but as yet has not given any form of ruling. There is a Petition before the European Parliament, but that may take two years to be heard. The fact that the SI has become law in terms of UK Regulations, without a debate and without a vote, does not equate with European Law - the Regulations on the Co-ordination of Social Security, and the CJEU Judgments. The ‘appropriate authority’ cannot be left at the DWP!

I would ask you to consider some facts, reasons and logic, before you accuse me too much of ad-hominim.

First, the DWP declared average winter temperature of 7.0°C for France is an act of pure fiction - it simply does not exist, other than on the back of an envelope in the DWP. Météo-France acting for the French Government does not use it or recognise it, nor does the CRU of the University of East Anglia, the source of the original temperatures used by the DWP. The actual average winter temperature for France was 4.9°C, confirmed by the CRU, confirmed by Météo-France, and confirmed, interestingly enough, by the Met Office. Those are facts.

Second, the DWP have used the argument that four of France’s DOMs, Guadeloupe, French Guiana, Martinique and La Réunion, must be /have to be included in the temperature for France. They have used the argument that the DOMs are integral parts of the French State - true - but that truth totally ignores the additional status which has been given, in Law to those four DOMs, plus Saint-Martin, which was ignored by the DWP as it was listed originally as a COM, and Mayotte, because it became a DOM later than the others. In that argument the DWP have claimed the DOMs are the same as all the Départements of Metropolitan France. The fact is, that is no longer true. The truth is, that all six DOMs are now Outermost Regions of the EU with a higher status not available to the 96 Départements of Metropolitan France.

The DWP then deployed the argument that under the co-ordination of social security, they were treating the DOMs in the same way as every other country - they were being consistent! Well, yes, the Regulations for the Co-ordination of social security do apply to the Outermost Regions, but now as Outermost Regions in their own right, and no longer as DOMs of the French State. As a matter of fact, if any OR found that an EU Directive conflicted with their internal policies, they can now go to Brussels direct and seek Derogation for their territory. They (the ORs) can by-pass Paris, a fact not available to the other 96 Départements in Metropolitan France.

Incidentally, there is probably now more ‘logic’ in adding the temperatures of the nine Outermost Regions (six French, 2 Portuguese, and 1 Spanish) to the whole of the thirty countries of the EEA, than there is in undertaking a fiddle to add them to France, in order to falsely increase the temperature for the whole of France above that of the SW of England - or did they ignore the Treaty of Lisbon, because IDS voted against it!

I don’t need the £200, but as long as I have breath, I will fight the gross injustice perpetrated by Iain Duncan Smith, because I know there are many British Pensioners who are in serious fuel poverty and need the Winter Fuel Payment. I absolutely agree with you that the £2.2 Billion spent on Winter Fuel Payment to every UK Pensioner, plus a few, and some in the EU (135,000 out of 471,000), could be better spent elsewhere.

Interesting however, that all the Parties fighting for seats in the next Parliament want to keep the WFP. The Conservatives want it be universal, except for those eliminated under SI 3270. Labour and the LibDems both want an income cap, £42,000 for Labour, and the 40% tax rate for the LibDems, virtually the same.

So, whilst we could have an interesting hypothetical discussion about poverty and deprivation, I will continue to campaign against this particular injustice.

22

An interesting story, Roger, but it is just that - a work of "faction" expressing a personal "fantasy" world that may or may not be based on truth, although I don't doubt your sincerity.

The many non sequiturs are not masked by the ad-hominim attacks - and ad-hominim is the lowest form of argument IMHO.

The crux of the conclusions is the interpretation of rulings in Newton and Stewart but the website does not confirm (or deny) that the connexion between these rulings and the SI has been tested by the appropriate authority. The ruling in both these cases could be interpreted as supporting the DWP decision - a serious weakness in the presentation. I think the website refers on the first page to this kind of presentation as fraud when led by IDS - so what's good for the goose?

I'm not an apologist for this or any government, they can come up with their own excuses, but I do wonder why all the effort over £200 when there are so many more serious injustices in the world?

Poverty and depravation is at frightening levels world-wide and we argue over £200 that most of us don't really need and many in Britain think we don't need either? Closer to home, we could be spending more time giving practical help to the few that do need £200 than pushing the responsibility back onto a bunch of politicians who don't have a great track record in this area.

23

Very impressive, good work Roger.

24

No, of course not. We will fight on and take it to Europe, but we cannot do this until the date for the 2015 WFP payment and we have officially left out.

25

This is being done illegally. Have you not read Roger’s website?

26

Ok so we all know this is wrong on so many counts, but what now can be done one appeal failed even with support from a few MPs. Is this the end?

27

Too right Raymond, us pensioners regardless of where in the EU we choose to live should receive the winter fuel payment simply because as you so correctly say it was introduced as a fiddle measure. To give us all a small amount which would be easily removed on a whim rather than a proper pension increase. I no longer have the right to vote in the UK, fortunately I can where I now live in Ireland and make no mistake, my vote will be wisely cast next year if our lot last that long.

28

Martin, thanks for that - I see I missed the 'manifesto insert', I assumed, wrongly that it was possibly an insert specific to Scotland. Anyway, I have now amended the website to include the SNP in the Manifesto details. It will be interesting to see where Scottish Parties will stand when the Scottish Parliament looks at it for Scotland.

29

The winter fuel payment was introduced rather than a rate of inflation pension increase. It should therefore be considered as part of the old age pension. That should be paid to all EU residents. This is a Government fiddle, the fairer way would be to make it dependent on income.

30

Roger, you are probably on a sticky wicket here, majority of British resident voters in the democracy of the UK will probably agree that British tax payer benefits should only be paid to those who live in the UK. As time goes on in the current political environment (across all parties) you may go on to find that you will be expected to spend your lifetimes wealth in the UK to support the UK community. I am not saying you are right or wrong but there is only so much cash to go round and you can expect those responsible for distribution to look at all areas for reducing expenditure so the easy targets are going to be the first on the list, I expect more unwelcome news to follow.........

31

Well done Roger, I will pass this on to my Conservative MEP Julie Girling, who is toeing the party line and also my present MP, who did sign the prayer, but rather late.

I am hoping to receive my voting papers soon.

32

Thanks for your reply, Roger.

The SNP Westminster manifesto does say on page 9 :

We will also vote to protect the Winter Fuel Allowance.

Yes, the Conservavitve, Labour, Liberal-Democrat and Green parties in Scotland have each launched their own manifestos.

However, if the promise is kept, when the parliament reconvenes, the Winter Fuel Payment will become a matter for the Scottish Parliament before the coming winter & not Westminster.

We still need to know where the Scottish parties stand on this.

33

Martin, I waited for the SNP Manifesto before going live with the website, but it is rather short on detail, so could not find anything which I could use to compare with the others. I am assuming the other Parties do not have a specific manifesto for Scotland as such, hence no reference to Scotland. Had the SNP Manifesto given more detail I would have included it, since they will clearly be the 'third' Party at Westminster!

Thanks for your thanks!

34

Well done Roger.

Fantastic to have collected so much information on this topic together.

I notice in your section on the General Election you make no comment on Scotland nor have you asked any of the Scottish parties for their policies. Yet the UK Government White Paper ( Scotland in the United Kingdom: An enduring settlement ) issued as a response to 'the Vow' and the Smith commission, stated >>>

Powers over the following benefits in Scotland will be devolved to the Scottish Parliament:

(2) Benefits which currently comprise the Regulated Social Fund: Cold Weather Payment, Funeral Payment, Sure Start Maternity Grant and Winter Fuel Payment.

This transfer of power has been promised to take place at the beginning of the new parliament by the Conservative, Labour and Liberal Democratic Parties. If they keep to this promise then the Winter Fuel Payment for 2015/16 for those formerly resident in Scotland will be a matter for the Scottish Government.

Have you yet asked the Scottish Government what is their policy on this matter ?

Thanks again for all your hard work on this matter.