Will you be seeking French Citizenship?

Patrick you can claim Irish Citizenship by post at the Irish Consulate in Paris but I'm not sure how much that would help your wife. You'd need input from someone with a non EU spouse as to what kind of visa they need and how easy it is to get for the spouse of an EU citizen.

No. While the UK is still in the EU the S1 is provided by them if the UK was the last place you worked and paid contributions before you claimed your pension. If that place was France and you then moved to the UK it would be France who would provide you with an S1 to access healthcare in the UK. So you could apply for French Nationality now and you would still be entitled to your S1 from the UK. I don't know if that situation would change after an exit as nobody knows.

No. As I explained above, any EU Citizen gets an S1 from the last EU state in which they worked and earned pension rights.

Nobody will play CMU cotisations this year as the CMU no longer exists. Basically you get a year free. PUMA cotisations will be billed next year and should be on the same basis as the CMU was, 8% of income over 9611 euros per annum (but I'm not aware of whether the percentage or thresholds have been confirmed yet).

The difference with PUMA is that everyone is in it, whether working or inactive. If you are working or run a business and have income of less than a lower threshold then under the old system you still got your healthcare based upon that income but under PUMA an extra cotisation may become payable based upon other income if your total family income is above the higher threshold. The cotisation will be calculated by the tax office based upon the RFR as shown on your avis d'impots.

Since the ayant droit status is being abolished as from 2020 for existing members or immediately for new entrants this effectively stops the situation where one spouse could run a small business and have access to healthcare based only upon that business income and/or the other spouse could have a free ride as an ayant droit, despite that other spouse having a high income of their own.

https://blogs.mediapart.fr/luttonscontrelefn/blog/130615/hoax-non-la-cmu-ne-va-pas-disparaitre-en-2017-lclfn

It's not just the cost but whether one would be allowed into the system in the first place. You have to have been legally resident for more than three months to join PUMA and under EU rules the criteria for legal residence can't include income checks after five years and if you're working, income is irrelevant. If we become non EU with no deal having been done for us as existing residents, what if we don't fit the criteria to be legally resident?

CMU no longer exists, John. The health system you would join now is PUMA. It has residence criteria for those who are not working which are based on being legally resident but what will the rules for legal residence be if we are no longer EU citizens? There is the question of whether those of us already here may have to apply for a visa and can we be guaranteed to get one?

All sorts of problems could be raised for us if no agreement about existing residents is made so we just have to hope that one will be. Even then, when politicians have spoken about an agreement it's for those who are already legally resident. Again, legally resident under what rules? As an EU resident, a pensioner with an S1 and an income of over the RSA level is legally resident. Without the S1, that's one of the legal residence criteria gone but as long as you an afford healthcare you can still join the health system if you have sufficient income and can get a visa but that's when the question of whether you can afford it will come up. A lot of people here may have the relevant level of income but only just, and be living on a tight budget.

Whichever way you look at it there could be difficulties. Can we really expect that both France and the UK will say that all existing residents can stay where they are with no checks as to their legal status, never mind with the respective states continuing to pay for their social security cover?

PUMA and CMU will both exist :

http://www.humanite.fr/la-puma-une-protection-universelle-maladie-pour-tous-595842

"

A dĂ©faut de temps suffisant de travail, il convient de faire des dĂ©marches pour ĂȘtre ayant droit de son conjoint lui-mĂȘme assurĂ© Ă  l’assurance maladie, Ă  dĂ©faut pour obtenir une CMU de base, gratuite ou payante selon le revenu net imposable dont on dispose.

Autre exemple : les personnes sans emploi et ne bĂ©nĂ©ficiant pas ou plus de l’assurance maladie doivent faire des dĂ©marches pour obtenir la CMU de base.

De plus la CMU de base n’étant pas attribuĂ©e Ă  titre permanent, il convient d’en faire la demande chaque annĂ©e.

D’autres dĂ©marches peuvent Ă©galement s’imposer en cas de perte d’emploi, de divorce, de dĂ©cĂšs du conjoint etc."

The USA allows for dual citizenship. It doesn't force you to relinquish your citizenship from another country when you take the oath to become a USA citizen.

If you look carefully John, I think you'll find that the para you're quoting is under the heading "Before 31 December 2015". It's explaining how things worked under the old system when there was the old "ayant droit" status which no longer exists.

The next para goes on to explain how things work from 1.1.16 on, and why it will be better - ie none of this is necessary any more.

I have just had a long discussion with my accountant and her comments to me may be helpful.

Now bear in mind we have lived in France since 1999, I am 76, married in France, and always paid our taxes - the latter being very significant.

She said that Brexit will have 3 impacts on us:

a) Access to the Health system is governed by a bilateral treaty between the UK and France. So it is not a function of EU membership. That is not to say it cannot change but that is obviously an unknowable future.

b) The tax system is also governed by a bilateral treaty and is not a function of EU membership. She also said that she has clients who are non-EU citizens (Brazil was the example) where the treaty between Brazil and France is to all intents and purposes the same as the UK. In other words that will probably not change.

c) Inheritance Law. That is governed by an EU treaty and thus we may end up having our estates managed under French inheritance law again. In our case as we married in France under "Communate" - I think that is the right phrase, then the survivor gets all the property and assets.

She went on to say that the Carte de Sejour EU was not necessary as it added nothing to our right to stay in France an dwas only useful as a means of identity. Since I have a French driving licence plus a very old Carte Sejour that expired in 2005, I need do nothing. I say that as I have been stopped by the police - usual road side check - and they were quite happy with my identity (even though the photo was taken 17 years ago!)

She said she will be writing to all the local prefectures, Gironds, Dordogne, etc seeking clarification and will write up a newsletter for her clients in due course when she has more information. I will ask her consent to share this information with you.

So overall, her advice is do nothing it is far too early.

Last point. She said I would be OK but anyone who has been playing games with the tax system may well hit major problems post Brexit. Good advice as always don't cheat you will eventually get caught.

Hope this helps.

Thanks. Useful points. Do nothing yet is exactly right. However, the question of healthcare is not just regulated by the bilateral treaty, it is also regulated by European Union rules which give the right of all EU citizens to the healthcare they would have received in their "home" country. I am optimistic, however, that by starting my Cotisations in France (to replace membership fo the UK NI system), I will remain within the French health system as a relatively long-term resident.

Am I correct in believing that I cannot have French citizenship until I have resided here for 5 years? And can I start the application process before that 5th anniversary, or must I wait for the 5 years to expire before I can start?

It's very clear, Chris, you have to have lived here for 5 years before you submit the dossier - so you're looking at around 7 years total ;-)

Direct from the government site : Vous devez justifier d'une résidence habituelle en France pendant les 5 années qui précÚdent le dépÎt de votre demande, sauf exception (réduction ou dispense).

by the way, I think you mean the same health care as nationals of the country in which you now live, not that of the country you left. i.e. here in France you have the right to the same health care scheme as the French ;-)

When you submit your application you need to provide documents to prove 5 years' continuous stable and legal residence. Until you have those documents, there doesn't seem much point in submitting an application as it wouldn't be accepted. In fact, if you want to submit 5 annual tax notices, which is probably the easiest way to prove legal residence, you'll have to wait for longer than 5 years since you probably didn't get your first tax notice until you'd been here for a year or so.

"Access to the Health system is governed by a bilateral treaty between the UK and France. " - I'm confused by this, what is this treaty? I thought that the rules for the new PUMA system covered everything, I wasn't aware that there were different rules for different nationalites, in fact I didn't think that that kind of discrimination would be allowed! So at the moment UK expats are governed by the PUMA arrangements for EU ressortissants. After Brexit, we'll be governed by the rules for non EU ressortissants. Unless special arrangements are negotiated - what at present, AFAIK, is not the case.

Hi Anna

Loose phraseology by me. I am retired, being 76 of course and my access to the health system is covered by the bilateral treaty in that my costs are paid for by the UK Gov't under said treaty.

I assume, but haven't checked, that you have not reached retirement age, maybe you are working and thus paying into the system that entitles you to access to the health system asd if you were a French citizen and udner the said EU regulations.

That is my understanding but I make no claim to omniscience only reporting what I was told today.

Even so I think it's a multi-lateral treaty rather than a bi-lateral treaty, and it is mentioned as such in the PUMA rules. It is an EU-wide agreement - the S1 is an EU document and it means that in certain circumstances any EU state must be responsible for the healthcare of EU citizens who have worked and contributed in that state, but who have retired and gone to live in another state. So in your case the UK covers your healthcare in France, but it could be someone who worked in Spain and now lives in Italy and Spain is covering their healthcare in Italy ... I don't think there is any special agreement between the UK and France, and when the UK leave the UK it will come to an end/need renegotiating.

Can anyone give me a title/website/link for the french/uk government document that lays out the 'Bilateral' non EU treaty on reciprocal healthcare - For the life of me l cannot find it - so need pointing in the right direction please.

Dan

I cannot find a link either. As I said it was only what I was told today though it has always been my understanding that there was a reciprocal treaty between the UK and France.

I will do some research with some contacts in the UK and see what I find.