Work uk / uk citizen but live in EU

Ok i know a few fb friends that do live in care work uk . So question
Once the transition period ends can we legally work? Technically we are cross border workers but in the WA the definition of a C B worker is returns home daily :joy:or maximum once a week.
Most of us work at least 2 weeks or even up to 6. Therefore not identified as a Cross Country worker. FOM ends December so whats our position. ?
I have asked British Ambassador and they have no idea but trying to find out :roll_eyes::roll_eyes:

I thought as long as stay under the 6 month limit so does not affect residency could carry on. As we are returnjng to uk and uk citizen but then Spanish resident :thinking:

Anyone had information from their companies or elsewhere ( i am in Spain but sure must be similar in France )

Asked in Spain as well :grin:

What type of work is it, ie are you an employee or self employed and where do you declare and pay your taxes? And what residential status do you have in the EU?

As a British Citizen I ā€œthinkā€ you will always have the right to work in the UK. So to me the issue is whether this work will fit with French rules (I know nothing about Spain.). If you have a 5 year CdS you can leave for a max of 6 months without jeopardising it. You canā€™t take employment in France unless you have a permanent CdS, but I imagine this would be for a UK firm? So my guess is that you can do short stints as long as you declare the income in France even if tax is paid in the UK. And you will probably have to pay social charges on that income in France

The last thing I read was that existing cross border working arrangements will be allowed to continue after transition but it wonā€™t be possible to set up a new arrangement since the UK will no longer be included in the EU social security arrangements. I guess as long as you stay with your current employer on the same S1 that you had before the end of transition, you will be OK.

Just read Janeā€™s post - as she suggests, if youā€™ve already qualified for permanent residency in Spain I canā€™t see anything to stop you going to work abroad on the same basis as if you took on a temporary job in the US, Australia or any other non EU country. But you would need to organise your own healthcare for the time you are in Spain and I donā€™t know how that would work, Spain has a different healthcare system to France.
If you havenā€™t yet got in your 5 years and qualified for permanent residency, I suspect that periods spent working abroad outside of the frontalier scheme, would not be regarded as correctly exercising FoM.

As i said we are not classed as cross country under the WA unless you return home daily or st least once a week

Ok to clarify lived in Spain 17 years this year, i have residence from 2003 and now residencia with con caracter permanente after the first 5 years .

I work for a UK company PAYE but also declare all income in Spain snd taxed here as well . Before Brexit the only stipulation was you could not be outside of Spain for more than 6 months in one year .

That raises another question as under the WA apparently we can be away for a one off continuous period up to 5 years. No mention of whether you can still be absent less than 6 months in any year .

As TCN can only be absent 6 months in any 5 year period . No idea if thats going to apply when we change .

Sorry Anna assumed as i said i am a uk citizen that , that meant i have a uk passport . yes born in the uk. I am covered in the Spanish healthcarr system . So no probkrm as Spain is my main residence , only pksce we have a house

Thatā€™s the theory but AFAIK the definition hasnā€™t changed. If you currently hold the status of frontier worker and have the appropriate paperwork, the UK having issued you with an S1 on that basis - even though technically perhaps it shouldnā€™t have because strictly speaking you didnā€™t meet the criteria - I canā€™t see it being questioned. The EU is committed to minimising disruption to peopleā€™s lives. I donā€™t think anyone is going to study every S1 holderā€™s working pattern and decide whether they can keep it or not.
Iā€™m assuming you have the paperwork because you said

but if in fact you are technically not cross border workers, because you donā€™t have the necessary paperwork, then obviously the situation would be different.
But if you already have permanent resident rights, the only issue I see is how you get healthcare in Spain.
As regards being out of Spain for 6 months I donā€™t see any issue there because the WA states that once you have permanent residence rights, you can be out of your host country for up to FIVE YEARS before you lose them.
But I really think you should be asking these questions on a Spanish forum. The residence rules for France are very different. I donā€™t even know what TCN stands for.

Anba . I have adked in Spain sadly no one responding .
I will say as i said before not sure why you keep mentioning healthcare but i am covered by the Spanidh state healyhcare and not via an S1 .

I dont know what paperwork you are refering to Āæ everyone i know who does this work of " live in care " were recruited hee jn Spain and know there are many do the same from France. No paperwork was needed , as long as you have a uk passport and or right to work in UK. Some are employed as i am , some self employed.

As long as you declared your income there is / was no problem

I lived in Spain for 8 years before starting this work so i never asked ukbfor s1 as a frontier worker and did mot need to here in Spain as covered by the universal healthcare.

I said i classed us a cross boarder workers as we are crossing borders. However the wa states a cross boarder worker returns daily or at least weekly.

My understand regarding the 5 year absence is it is a one off absence ie if you go to another country to study for a few years or on secondmant via work to another country.

NOT a build up of 1 month hers , 2 months there adding uo to 5 years. :grin:

Oh well have to hope Britush Ambassador replies.

I asled france as regardless of s1 or whatever live in carers wherever in eu will be in same position as myself

Elaine

Hello Elaineā€¦

I know we have thrashed this subject somewhere else on the Forumā€¦ that was when you were considering living in Franceā€¦ :thinking: so weā€™ve given it our best shot

I am wondering whether you really should direct your enquiry to Spain/Spanish authorities, to tell you what it will and will not allow/whateverā€¦ as I think/believe each European country can put its own twist on some things post-Brexitā€¦

I may well be wrong with that ideaā€¦ but it is surely worth thinking about and if someone knows for sureā€¦ letā€™s hear it, pleaseā€¦

good luck

I think youā€™re over thinking the problemā€¦ in reverse it would be ā€œinterestingā€ - but as a UK passport holder you will always be able to work in the UK regardless of where you live. My situation is similar and the net outcome of Brexit is bugger all with regards working back in the UK.

UK regardless of where you live you hold a UK passport and have the right to work there.

Health - I donā€™t know the Spanish system - here youā€™d pay an extra 8%'ish if the UK doesnā€™t offer you a workers S1 - whether Spain will continue to provide universal healthcare to Brits I donā€™t have a clue - but if youā€™re declaring in Spain ask the tax/social people there - Ambassadors are like Bidets - look pretty but are utterly useless/pointless. The problem with Brexit is its a UK thing they can control what the UK does and therefore arguably tell you - asking the UK what Spain/France will do is pointless at best

Residency - if you spend more than 6 months overseas then residency can get interesting - but equally I worked overseas for well over 6 months every year whilst living in the UK - everyone was happy to take my tax money and no one ever suggested residency was an issue. If its ā€œlive inā€ work it makes thing really simple - your home/family centre is clearly not work provided temporary accommodation - I wouldnā€™t be doing 6 months+ PAYE but time is one of several factors. Only Spain can tell you whether residency is an issue.

Tax - has nothing to do with Brexit. You will require your NI number as you do now- but that never changes/expires - you will be paid in the UK - you will be taxed in the UK - you will pay NI in the UK just like yesterday. It will have to be declared here/Spain just like today - but tax is completely separate from Brexit so that wonā€™t change. The only real question is how it links back to health care.

Hi Chris .

Thanks for detailed reply . Not sure i understand the but about 6+ paye ?

I would not do pkus as its always been even before brexit a rule can not spend more than 6 months outside Spain without loosing residency .

If we go to a TIE everyone keeps mentioning the 5 years but my take is thst , thats a one off for if ie you go to another country to study or work continuously. Not as i do say 2 weeks on 6 or more off .

Healthcare is a concern but as its not linked to S1 i am hoping continues . If not i suppose having paid ni for last 8 years i could get an S1 for st least 18 months lol

The joys of brexit .

Elaine

I mention healthcare because for anyone who works in the UK and lives in France, this would be an issue. OK itā€™s not for you, but this is a forum for people living or considering living in France.

I mentioned paperwork because from your first post I thought you were officially classed as a cross border worker. The cross border worker arrangement has specific rules and specific paperwork. It is recognised status and as such the rights of cross border workers are protected in the WA. However since in fact you are doing your own thing I donā€™t see why you canā€™t keep doing it. Brexit isnā€™t going to change Spainā€™s residence rules or tax rules. I still donā€™t know what TCN means. France has different residence criteria to Spain. You really do need to ask someone who knows the Spanish system.

Ok thanks i have asked and still asking but sadly no replies or no one knows .

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Reading other peopleā€™s responses it seems to me you are asking a question that doesnā€™t need an answer.

You are not an official ā€œcross-border workerā€, even if you might cross borders to work, so none of those constraints apply.

You are a full paid up Spanish resident. So you are able to leave Spain for up to 6 months for holidays without loosing your residency rights, or to work in the UK because you are a UK citizen. And you merely have to do the right thing in terms of declaring and paying tax.

Up until the end of the transition period your Spanish issued EHIC equivalent will cover your healthcare whilst in the Uk for periods of up to 90days. After the end of the transition period you may well have to buy private health insurance as EHIC system may not apply to UK. And since you donā€™t have an S1 as a non-UK resident you arenā€™t eligible for free NHS treatment.

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If the OP is employed to work in the UK they should be paying NICs which entitle them to UK healthcare and social security.
Normally you are entitled to NHS cover if you live or work in the UK. This wonā€™t change after Brexit.

Thanks for all the replies , yes i pay NiCs , tax and declare tax here in Spain .

Thatā€™s interesting, I always read that the NHS is residence basedā€¦ perhaps itā€™s difference between primary and secondary care?

ā€œFor secondary care services, the UKā€™s healthcare system is a residence-based one, which means entitlement to free healthcare is based on living lawfully in the UK on a properly settled basis for the time being.ā€.

Yes, for years we have glibly parroted that ā€œthe NHS is residence basedā€ but itā€™s more complicated than that really. I suppose what it means is, itā€™s a residence based system as opposed to a contributions based system like most countries have. If you live in the UK you are automatically covered by the NHS even if you never worked and contributed in your life. Although even thatā€™s become questionable because there have been cases of EU citizens who have lived in the UK for many years and thought they were ā€œproperly settledā€ but have been turned down for settled status because they werenā€™t correctly enrolled for healthcare.

The cross border worker arrangement works on the principle that a cross border worker and his employer pay into the social security system of the country where he works, and that country is responsible for things like sick pay, pension pot, unemployment benefit, and also covers his healthcare both there and in the country where he lives.

-pesky EU, messing with UK institutions :wink:

Even though in this case the poster isnā€™t technically a cross border worker, still if theyā€™re employed to work in the UK then I think they have to be put on the payroll and they and their employer have to pay NICs. Even in the UK, I donā€™t think itā€™s legal to employ somebody without declaring them to HMRC and putting them on the payroll and taking responsibility for their social security.

Iā€™m not sure how easy it would be for an ā€œunofficialā€ frontalier to get a CdS in France because what would their status be - they canā€™t claim to be a frontalier if they donā€™t have the correct paperwork, and I donā€™t see what other status could they claim since theyā€™re neither self supporting inactifs nor working in France . But the OP seems to have had no problem in Spain, so if Spainā€™s been OK with the arrangement up to now I donā€™t see why Brexit need change anything.

Not really relevant but on the same subject - I seem to remember reading that official cross-border-working Brits living in France and commuting back to the UK, qualify for permanent residence in France after 2 years of correctly exercising FoM as a frontier worker, instead of the normal 5. I remember it because when I read it I wondered what the logic was. But I canā€™t find it now.

TCN means ā€˜third country nationalā€™-ie not an eu citizen