I Guess thats end of story
As I understand it, if you are physically in france when you are working then it is considered as if you are employed in France - so therefore you should be taxed on this in France. There was someone on here who had chapter and verse on this subject, so hopefully they will pop up and tell you.
As JJ says. It’s where your bum is when you do the work that counts, not where your customers or your employer are.
As an EU citizen you have the right to work in France but there are conditions attached.
A person who is resident and employed in one EU state and is sent to work temporarily in another EU state is classed as a seconded worker or a posted worker (travailleur détaché). The employer has to comply with the host country’s employment law for the duration of the posting but you continue paying tax and NICs in your home country. There is a procedure to go through which includes obtaining a portable health document from HMRC, and in France’s case informing DIRECTTE of your presence as a worker on French soil with exact dates etc.
If you work from your own home and keep your head down, the chances of DIRECTTE picking it up are small, but on the other hand six months a year is a significant length of time and DIRECTTE are currently on a mission to seek out posted workers whose presence hasn’t been duly notified to them. What they’re actually looking for is shady companies who use undeclared foreign labour to avoid complying with French labour law - the aim is to tackle social dumping and unfair competition for legit French companies. However it does happen that overseas employers who aren’t in competition with local businesses and didn’t even realise they were infringing the law, get caught up in the crossfire. I have had a couple of clients who fell foul of posted worker regulations, and believe me DIRECTTE can be a very unpleasant organisation to have on your case.
So I think you should be aware of the posted worker regulations, even if you decide to ignore them. If you were just intending to work from your campervan while here for a few weeks or even a month out of the year it would be different, but I wonder whether living and working here undeclared for months on end amounting to nigh on half the year in total, would arguably be taking you into a rather grey area.
Anna… whilst it is difficult to know about Brexit…
on the face of it, would a UK person (Robert) wishing to visit/work in France (once UK is no longer EU) … need to have the CdS which allows “working”… rather than simply holidaying… ???
This is what France has to say about posted workers and Brexit
Quelles sont les formalités à accomplir concernant le détachement de salariés britanniques en France ?
> Avec accord de retrait
La réglementation en vigueur relative au détachement des travailleurs reste applicable.
> Sans accord de retrait
La réglementation en vigueur relative au détachement des travailleurs reste applicable. Les formalités administratives demeurent les mêmes (déclaration préalable du détachement et désignation d’un représentant en France, conservation des documents obligatoires…) Les salariés détachés demeurent soumis aux dispositions du code du travail concernant l’application du noyau dur (salaire minimum, temps de travail, congés, santé et sécurité).
Si le détachement est en cours au moment du Brexit, à l’issue d’une période transitoire fixée par décret, l’intéressé devra demander, le cas échéant en cas de détachement de longue durée, et obtenir à l’issue de cette période (dite de grâce ou de transition une carte de séjour temporaire délivrée par la préfecture, d’une durée de validité d’un an.
Si à la date du retrait sans accord du RU de l’UE, le détachement en France du ressortissant britannique n’a pas encore commencé alors cette situation de détachement doit être appréciée comme un détachement d’un ressortissant d’un pays tiers et donne lieu aux procédures de droit commun en la matière.
How easy it would be in practice for a visiting Brit to come and work in France below the radar post Brexit, I suppose would depend on whether Brits need visas or not. Though even if no visas are needed, immigration might start asking awkward questions if they notice that a person of working age has a pattern of spending significantly more time in France per year than the average annual leave allowance would permit.
It has to be said that the OP’s situation is a rather loose fit with being a posted worker in that the company doesn’t seem to have any specific reason for posting him to France, he’s doing it personal reasons, but I suspect that’s how he would be classed because what other status can he come under. I think Brits have been a bit unique in the EU for wanting to spend so much of their time in an EU country that at the same time they don’t want to actually live in. Most nationalities seem to decide which country they want to be in, move there and live their life there until or unless they change their minds and go somewhere else, Freedom of movement was designed to facilitate that, and also to accommodate specific situations like cross border working and temporary postings, Whereas Brits tend to want to do the foot in two camps thing, and it always was bit messy because EU legislation doesn’t really cater for it, and it’ll no doubt get messier after Brexit.
Thanks for all the info.Food for thought indeed! Given that I only work for a couple of hours in the mornings and I am due to retire next year, then maybe it’s time I took early retirement. It all seems a lot of hassle for what amounts to part time work.
On a slightly different scenario when an employee were paid a retainer each month and if necessary would travel to UK to work as an when necessary and then paid additional amount for the time taken for the work.
Would this all be taxed in UK as the actual work is being done in UK - no work would have been performed in France?
Thanks for the thought Mat, but today I have arranged to retire in May. It seems the sensible thing to do in the circumstances. I can easily get part time work when I am in the UK, so I am happy with this resolution to the problem.
Mat… as you say, different scenario…
… surely, if the person was Resident in France…ALL the money received would be included in the Income Declaration, for France to consider what Tax is applicable (and Social Charges perhaps)… and then it would depend if France and UK (still) have an “understanding”… (after Brexit)…
That makes sense, so declare UK earnings and tax paid along with any French earnings and see what the result is.
… and if anyone Resident in France… has any queries/grey areas re the Declaration… they can always chat face-to-face with the Tax Folk (local to where they live)… better to talk things through and “get things right”… than make a mistake which might have repercussions…
Thankfully the double tax treaty has nothing to do with Brexit! It is a separately negotiated treaty.
I used to be self-employed in the UK while resident in France (travelling back for one week in 6). I paid tax in the UK on my UK tax return, and also declared it on my French tax return, and was credited with the tax already paid. Maybe it wasn’t exactly the correct way to do it, but neither tax office seemed to have a problem with it.
The difference is that my backside was not in france when I took up my drafting pen… and because pre-Brexit no complications about whether I should be considered a worker or an inactif here…
I mention Brexit… because… none of us know what S**T is going to hit the fan… and the fallout could be ghastly…
What worked well in the past… is not necessarily going to be allowed to continue… that would be much to easy… (or am I being just a little pessimistic)…
I am expecting the sunny uplands that have been promised! (you have concerned me now, are they not guaranteed?)