Paul
If I started polling everyone every time I saw fit to make a change nothing would ever get done. I didn't suddenly change my mind, I made an executive decision based upon my belief after having read everyones comments that more people would be disrupted by the change than would benefit from it.
After all, you have presumably tried all of the other sites during your 20 years and you still ended up here so we must be doing something right?!
Thanks
James
Hi James, glad to see you back and hope you are well . You said earlier in the discussion " Well as I have said previously, if enough people want flat instead of threaded then I'll change it."
How many is "enough" ?
But from your most recent comment above , you seem to have suddenly changed your mind and seem adamant that change will not occur .
Doreen said " I do love this site but after 15 years in France and reading every expat site on the internet, I have never had any difficulty in following topics until I found SFN last year."
That is pretty much the same way as I see it after 20 years here.
Dare I suggest that you poll all users of this site to actually see what members would prefer? You may be surprised at the result ( and so may I !) Obviously it needs to be set up that members can only vote once . This would at least be fair and democratic way to actually see what people prefer. Now you could of course tell me to sod off and mind my own business :) and take it or leave it but my response would be that time will tell if you have made the right decision.
It is clear that some like flat and some like the threaded discussion style. As this is a pro flat discussion on a site using threaded style we have a lot of anti status quo comments. If the tables were turned I'm sure we would be reading the same comments from those in favour of a change from flat to threaded. So for that reason, I will not be changing the style to flat. I will attempt to make the indent icon more visible as per Tracy's suggestion, hopefully that will make things clearer, as it's hardly visible at the moment.
Thanks for all of your input, and apologies to those of you who continue to have difficulty with it.
Kind regards
James
To wit, if a large number of responses goes up in a short space in time then the @Paul becomes all the more disjointed because it then becomes necessary to scroll back to be able to copy and paste the bit (or whole) of the comment one is responding to or else do it by memory or guesswork which is far less precise. That is exactly why so many forums seem so utterly confused and can sometimes become hard work.
Doreen, the example was intentionally simple to demonstrate the differing use of the two forms of format and not detract from that purpose, it could have been about the intricacies of french tax law and spiralled off into a discussion about cancer but it would not then have demonstrated so easily the two layouts.
I appreciate you may prefer the flat layout, for others the purpose of my example was to show visually the impact of the two as many find it easier to visualise an example than to interpret the descriptions.
The threaded layout avoids having to write @Paul or @Sheila at the beginning of each response which you would have to do with a flat layout to make sense and the @Paul could be 4 pages away from their original response.
I will look into that Tracy
Could it be that the 'threaded' lines are not clear enough? Your example Suzanne was great and very easy to follow and the 'flat' one was not at all. Any chance of making the lines darker James, that way it's very easy to follow - for example if I am looking at the computer without my glasses on I can't see the thread lines at all (showing my age).
As I understand it, the reason for the design on SFN is as Catharine said because it is designed as a network with ongoing "progressive" conversations not a traditional forum. Newest first is a social trend for casual commenting like "cool photo" or "great article" .
I’ve given ficticious examples of how the two options James spoke of might look on a simple progressive discussion:
Flat – replies are in Chronological order
Threaded – replies are indented below the post or reply that they responded to.
If you now look back at the Flat conversation you can see that my response to Paul’s recipe which happened at the same time almost as Sheila’s response doesn’t flow as a conversation. I wanted to comment on Paul’s response about a recipe not on the original post about nails. If this thread went on for 25 pages with people talking about nails and snails I think it could be very confusing. That is the nature of a conversation on a social network – many conversations between different people spiralling off in all directions – like a chat in a pub between a group of friends, some interrupt, some stay quiet, some nod in agreement and others object. The way the ‘forum’ on SFN is set up is exactly like a conversation.
Personally I think when you get the hang of threaded, newest response to the original discussion is always at the end but recognise the indentations are responses to responses and can occur at any time in the timeline of the discussion then you can get used to it and it makes sense to be structured this way.
As James says if the majority want Flat then he can change it BUT be aware it may cause further confusion as I hope my example above demonstrates.
Well as I have said previously, if enough people want flat instead of threaded then I'll change it. I think it would be a shame to do that as the inline threaded responses are a nice feature. That is just my opinion though and I will be happy to act on the wishes of the majority.
Doreen, do you get email notifications? The reason I ask is that they will always bring you directly to a reply or a comment on a thread you're following. It's how I find my way around. It is possible to turn them off though.
I don't see much in it really. I've just clicked 'reply' to you which is in effect similar to quoting what you said and posting at the end which is what would happen in a flat forum. So, I would say that it is no more or less logical, just different.
Lovely sentiment Tracy and I'm totally with you. Yes, the discussion format may seem out of synch if you're used to comments simply falling one under the other but, as here, I'm able to 'reply' directly to the comment I'm referring to/interested in and not have it appear three pages away at the end.
A lot of people may have a niggle about sites and how they're set up but, to me, SFN works incredibly well. As with most things navigation becomes easier the more you try it. I've not read the entire thread but from what I've seen there have not been suggestions as to what the alternative should be. If it's to tag comments on one by one at the end, they won't be associated with something specific you may be replying to.
If the system seems to be working for thousands of members, why tinker with it?
A brief explanation of the difference between threaded and flat discussions;
FLAT VS. THREADED
Does that help?
Terry
Are you aware that Alexa only collects data from those who have their toolbar installed? I used to follow our Alexa rank but I soon noticed it had no correlation at all with statistics that we collect via Google analytics. There data is skewed and not widely used by industry professionals.
For example Alexa shows our 3 month visitor figures to be 11.68% down on the previous period, whereas they are in fact up by 8.38%, and unique visitors are up by over 27%. This is a regular trend by the way.
James
A quickish response before work and things drag me away:
a) Builder refers to construction which is the trade of the person I was addressing and not as you 'appear' to be understanding it. The assumptions being made in blunt statements are clear for all to see. I cannot understand why you are saying what you are since you appear to be using your assumptions rather than knowledge. Challenging such things is not insulting. However, you are using precisely what you are criticising by veiling it in 'politeness'.
b) Catharine and James do not need to be preached at, because James has been ill, Catharine has been responding and has said exactly what the case is, what they set up and what they want. The majority of members do not complain. Your 'Catharine...just listen' is so patronising you should be very careful about using the word insult. Read back over the entire thread before slapping them down please.
c) Alexa is achieving what? The positions are out of how many sites? Several of their 'statistics' are completely wrong. Let us take education alone, where I come from, and how almost opposite the probable stat that is. Objectively, I would say it is almost oppositionally describing the reality of a largely educated membership. SFN is not collating such data, unless they are volunteered and many people provide little if any data.
d) I used 'faux statistics', I said only that I 'know' several hundred members to stress the point that the people responding here saying what is wrong are a small minority. I said '5-6%' to emphasise the point that I know a small minority and it is in turn a minority of those people here. Catharine called them a 'vociferous minority', I agreed with what she was saying. The use of a percentage is not as a statistic per se. Having had very much more training than I would have wished myself in quantitative and qualitative methods, using both in my professional life very, very often I understand stats. I use them when I use stats, but not as a single percentage as an example.
e) I am a social scientist, have worked on computer systems as a user for about 40 years since they were a vast room rather than something on my desk. I have 'worked' in pushing 80 countries. So what? What has yours or mine got to do with SFN? Yes I am ubiquitous, indeed if you read the chain you would see that for health reasons I could mainly not work for a year and so was on here a lot. I am also not try to be scientific but human. Your accusation of 'unsubstantiated chatter' is back to insulting, how do you know what I know and why I respond as I do? I am neither afraid to debate, very hard sometimes, but still have sense of humour.
So, you had your say, I am having mine. It is opinion one on one. I think you are putting Catharine and James down for their choices which does not make you right. However, bottom line is that I, not somebody else but simply me, find you patronising and insulting.
Now I must work...
Oh God. I am lost again. According to my email something very exciting has been going on here since I posted on page one when it was page one!!! Ah well, never mind. We never seem to have this problem on Cat Chat or Emerald Isle! But then perhaps its because there are fewer of us and we all know one another. Its lovely! Night all
Brian seems to be ubiquitous and loyal but unscientific about us builders and basis stats on guesses. We have an eye for certain things and not afraid to speak up when there is something wrong so a lot of unsubstantiated chatter to talk down the soothsayers doesn't work and is insulting.
Websites depend upon growth and positive trends, not a few loyal activists.
For the sake of tough careing look at the stats as suggested.
www.alexa.com and enter this site's URl. http://www.survivefrance.com/
That is science and not supposition built on heresay.
Catharine...just listen, because that is the time only you will learn and we do care. You really do need to do something now that this has reached this juncture.
As an ex scientist and Computer systems specialist that has been a consultant in 25 countries, this before I also get labelled as a 'builder' as some sort of subliminal jibe...yuk n meh. There is only one rule.
Decide what you want and work out how to get it.
Never say this is what I have got...what do I do with it.
Actually I can't really take the credit as it was something our glorious leader had posted a while back. But...I did manage to use the search box and find it. All by myself!
Consider yourself well and truly in credit :)
Catharine, you really need a 'like' button. Definite 'like' Vic:-)
That's fine Shirl, even though we more or less said the same. Catharine saved words...