Thirded,
I think it should make complicate many things such as business and travels here and there. To day, it's easy to work and run a company by each sides the Channel because both UK and France are in EU. But after? If UK leaves EU, what could happen? May be that decision has a non sens but only for political reasons not for people’s interests (as a rule with UE main decisions).
seconded ;-)
Sage and very well informed words Roger. Thank you!
David Cameron may have made the biggest mistake of his life. In pandering to the right wing of his party he seems to have overlooked one vital element. Many of those on the right wing of the Tory Party are fiercely anti-Europe, and in appearing to appease them, he may in fact have encouraged them to believe they are within sight of their primary objective - an exit from Europe.
Some of those right-wingers have been working since Ted Heath took us in to the Common Market, to find a way out, and it looks as if David Cameron might just have handed them the final throw of the dice.
It has been obvious since the first Treaty was signed on 25th March 1957 that the economic union would be followed by, first monetary union, and then by political union. Indeed the Treaty of Rome was a major political act in itself, followed closely by the binding together of Germany and France. Those two celebrated their 50 years of closeness just a few days ago and the speeches made showed they will not stop now, so for David Cameron to delude himself they will ever give him enough is like living in cloud cuckoo land.
The two scenarios following the General Election in 2015 both look pretty bleak. Either Cameron will lose to a newly-rampant Labour Party, and in which case his right wing will depose him and set about destroying the Conservative Party. Or, he wins that election, and then has to go to the country seeking a No mandate for his referendum.
The very first speech I ever made in public I asked the question ‘the six and the seven, why not the thirteen’. I argued that the European Economic Community and the European Free Trade Area, as two separate entities, did not make sense for the long-term future.
I accept now I did not factor in the inevitable political union which had to follow.
Harmonisation became the key word; harmonising taxes; harmonising manufacturing standards like electric plugs and light bulbs; harmonising simple things like measurements, going metric, and eventually harmonised monetary union - all had their apparent attractions, until you came to realise that to achieve those levels of harmonisation would require enormous political compromise.
Interesting to see therefore that Chancellor Angela Merkel has already spoken of compromise - I think Cameron has painted himself into a corner, he has no room for manoeuvre, no room for compromise. And my old friend Elmar Brok, the Chairman of the European Parliament’s Foreign Affairs Committee, and incidentally a long-standing Anglophile, declared yesterday (23rd) “Cameron’s suggestions are unacceptable”.
So, I cannot conceive Cameron has any prospect of achieving what he claims he wants: “a new settlement in which Britain can be comfortable and all our countries can thrive”. Most of the other countries are happy where they are right now. Britain stands alone, isolated, and soon to be isolationist.
I too listened to David Cameron's speech but have decided that IF the decision to come out of the EU is taken it will be so far in the future it's just not worth worrying about at the moment.
Well, I would use the right to take my wife and children's nationality (OK, they are duals) and the fact that since my wife is a property owner (a cow meadow and a one third share in the mountain hut!) in Switzerland she is technically still resident which entitles me to live there and take nationality very quickly. By dint of the agreement with the EU she enjoys full EU rights, so I would be able to continue here and be part of the health service and so on but have absolute dread of the bureaucracy it would entail if it comes to that!
It's looking more and more like Leyte, Philippines for us. My UK pensions and income will do us fine there, the only downer will be that if I get ill (read when I get ill) I will probably die as to get to a decent hospital it's a four hour boat journey and the boats don't run all the time. Very strangely indeed the BBC World service ran an article about healtcare on Leyte ONLY LAST NIGHT. Was that premonition or what? If we were living down there I don't think even I would be interested in the referendum.
Essentially right but look at the legislation, which disturbed a lot of people campaigning for votes where they reside, and you will see that it is specifically for general elections and also require one to remain registered with the last local authority in which they resided. The wording does not mention any other kind of plebiscite and would need to be revised to include referenda, which would take all of the steps required to pass it into law. When the campaigners for a choice of vote in country of residence or origin spotted that they wrote to Gordon Brown and to the best of my knowledge no reply was given then or by the present government. The question of a referendum was raised long before the last general election which is why they looked. So, I suspect we are being lead by the noses a bit here and need to fight, if it matters to people, to ensure participation in the referendum.
If you are on the electoral register for a UK constituency, you have the right to vote in a UK referendum.
You cannot be on such a list if you left more than 15 years ago.
People had lost interest by then, hence the 39% turn out that gave the UK the present situation. Gordon is one of histories least palatable footnotes at most, but he cannot be accused of putting people off what they had already entirely given up the ghost on.
It is interesting you ask that question and having joined a campaign for the right to national electoral rights throughout the EU but with the option of retaining them in home countries, never both though, I looked at the UK legislation. It took so long from when it was proposed, seconded and drafted (two full years) to being put through parliamentary committees and civil service lawyers, (nearly five years) and then votes, amendments and time for it to pass into legislation that even if the UK left the EU in 2019, which with a referendum in 2017 and two years to leave as the laws say, because nobody has thought of that and would not until 2017 anyway (no need until known either way basis), then staring now to be inclusive for 2017 would not work and even the principle of expatriate voting in the changed situation are more or less ruled out. Basically a few hundred thousand people will be left politically (as well as economically) high and dry. As it stands, referenda require full UK residency, it makes me shudder to think about the fact that this is at all possible in the 21st century. So much for the democracy so wider trumpeted in the western world.
You've missed the worst of the lot Brian- Broun the Cloun!
An issue that needs to be addressed immediately is to ensure on such an important issue that all British citizens (especially those that live in Europe) have the right to have their voice heard in any referendum that may take place. That will take time to organise and it's the case at the moment that many of the same have no rights (they expire 15 years after leaving the UK), or have not continued to maintain them. Based on previous evidence there will be little atempt to encourage enfranchisement, indeed many politicians actively oppose such rights. It should be taken as a positive that Cameron specifically referred to the retired who live in Europe. Were things to go the other way one could envisage Dunkirk like scenes of senior citizens fleeing often to arrive as unwanted guests of family, friends or indeed councils and the government. Local housing lists would become very busy indeed. Those that stayed "sur le continent" would be frit indeed as to their continuing entitlement if any to healthcare, and other benefits. In my own case I would as an aged parent with a non Schengen, non British wife, be concerned also about the cost of the education of my daughter. My wife currently has residency and working rights as the spouse of an EU citizen. Would those go? Would, equally, she be welcomed in the UK (judging by Radio 4 this morning-no). Would we indeed become DPs?
Robert, 3x Thatcher + 2.5x Blair with Major between and any vague interest there might have been went out of the window. Therein the problem.
Hi Damaris, no that is not the case, at least for Kiwis. Our situation is different, we are always under threat unless a French citizen. To get that we must live and be employed continuously for a minimum of 5 years before applying, all the dratted documentation of course, must pass a French proficiency test in oral speaking and comprehension to a fairly high level. The approval (or not) process can take up to another 2 years during which time you still need to live and work in France continuously, constantly applying for a titre de sejour for up to 7 years (total) in my case. I'm still waiting for the one I applied for 7 months ago. My second 'temporary' one is about to expire...ooops, better not get started on that. As for buying property- there's no mention of that on the govt website. Since CDIs are almost impossible to obtain for a foreigner (non EU citizen)this is not a requisite for naturalisation.
Note, even if married to a french person you must be married minimum of 4 years before applying fornaturalisation and you'll be expected to prove you are a bona fide couple.
Jon....in my experience most of the UK have been completely turned off politics and as you say are ignorant.
I'm not quite sure why this happened, something to do with 3 terms of Thatcher I suspect. She advocated a very selfish, self reliant style of "community". Everyone looking out for their own self interest etc etc. but then she, along with Reagan were huge fans of Anne Rand, need I say more?
On the broader issue of referendum, after watching news items and 'on the street' interviews I am left with the impression that average people are not sufficiently knowledgeable to make an informed decision, this does not mean a referendum is wrong, perhaps democracy is about giving people the right to say how they feel and what they want for their future without demanding that they fully understanding the issues.
Personally I am a big fan of decisions made with some degree of knowledge and information, the fact that people of considerable education still disagree perhaps makes a case for the emotional, tabloid led knee jerk response, after all the complexity of economics may mean that a guess is statistically as accurate as an informed opinion but I would still rather we were wrong but had at least tried to make an informed decision rather than allowing tabloid level political thinking to rule our destiny.
I never ceased to be amazed by the strength of opinion vs the weakness of knowledge displayed by my fellow countryman, when someone knows enough to know they dont know enough you are getting somewhere! Still we should not be surprised the public also think they know better than scientists on such topics as climate change and health matters, why should we balk at the idea of having a referendum on a topic about which most know nothing?
Sorry for the scathing tone - not enough coffe yet!
If Britain left the EU then the following could/would apply.
All rights accorded to British Citizens under EU laws would cease to apply. The four freedoms of movement of people, goods, money, services would cease
One would no longer be European Citizens – passports would have to be changed.
Carte-de-Séjours would need to issued and these demand a minimum level of income. No British Citizen would have the automatic right to live in France. Some may not have the financial backing to be allowed to live in France, especially those trying to establish businesses from scratch with very little capital
All the British Pensioners would be severely affected.
Medical subsidy support would cease.
One would no longer have the vote for local commune councils, nor the right to be a local Councillor.
Cross Border Trade would be affected. Goods from abroad would revert to the practice before 1973.
The purchase of goods by internet could/ would be taxed and subject to import duties - in the same manner as goods entering at present from the USA.
The current relaxation of inheritance laws for European Citizens (although confused) would not operate for the British citizen.
Other nasties could arise. For example, at one time the French imposed taxes on the import of money.
At the moment the British Expatriate has no political voice. The British Government must to take notice of the British Citizens in Europe and act in their interest.
Visit these links to get more information and to take action….
PLEASE PETITION FOR THE VOTE!
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/43238
To send your opinion to MPs at Westminster. Here is an email address list- TELL THEM!
http://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/mps/
To read commentaries on this and other matters concerning expatriate pensioners.
David, I am not sure which definition of 'socialism' you believe you are referring to. There is what it nowadays called socialism and even occasionally communism. In fact that is 'state capitalism'. Unlike a socialist model, it is not redistributive at all. What, for example, is redistributive here in France from the huge amount of stoppages and taxes everybody pays? Even communism in every form seen thus far and still chuntering on is a corrupted form of something that was originally intended to be socialism. The EFT is the same. In fact, look at it carefully and the biggest benefactors are national exchequers and the proportion of it used to 'help' less well off countries is not so hot. In fact, as it tends to be, it is a means of generating income for the sakes of reducing the Mickey Mouse money central banks are producing like an infernal sausage machine. However, certain elements of the media who disapprove try to tell us all it is some kind of communist plot and that we are heading toward some kind of Soviet Union of Europe. There are too many fundamental differences between countries for that ever to happen and so the EU needs to move forward, have more fiscal union to make controls simpler and efficient but EFT is not actually helpful to that end. Brokers and bankers love the idea, the poor hicks who get hit for the taxes do not.
Glen, move where? That is the problem. EU countries may not want people from the UK, although the UK will keep most everybody and even want more, ironically. I have it easy, other people do not. Going back to the UK is a disaster for people without a very tidy nest egg and a very good pension if they are retired. Houses here will go for a song and there.. even if the market collapses. Economists and bankers are not predicting any good of leaving the EU, saying it is financial suicide. I doubt Cameron, Clegg, Miliband, Farage or any other politician gives a toss about the many thousands of UK citizens throughout the EU who will be badly compromised. Politically the UK is a nightmare with no remedy at all - no, not even in the tiny little green and socialist world because there is not a single conviction politician anywhere and it takes many to effect positive change.